When Did WW II Really Start?

[Vrylakas]

The following exchange between Yoda Power and Insurgent intrigued me and prompted this thread:

Apropos strange war relations. It reminds me how it's not a common known fact that Thailand (Siam then) was allied with Japan...
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Yoda Power

Originally posted by insurgent [...] quote:

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Originally posted by insurgent
Apropos strange war relations. It reminds me how it's not a common known fact that Thailand (Siam then) was allied with Japan...
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They were only allied after Japan had invaded Indochina, Siam feard that they would invade Siam too.
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Yeah sure, but the "invasion" of Indochina (I'd not quite call it that) was well before Pearl Harbor - bringing Siam into the war allied with Japan.
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Yoda Power

Originally posted by insurgent [...] Mar 11, 2003 05:00 PM

quote:
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Originally posted by insurgent
Yeah sure, but the "invasion" of Indochina (I'd not quite call it that) was well before Pearl Harbor - bringing Siam into the war allied with Japan.
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but the war startet before Pearl Harbor
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Sure.

When do you think it (The Pacific War) started?
1937 - Japanese invade China?

There are several definitions and opinions. I define WWII to be 1939-1945. The Pacific War started in 1941 in my book, since it only really became a Pacific War when the US and Britain were attacked.

But sure, yes you could argue that it started before Pearl Harbor.

well ww2 startet 1939 no doubt about that, just because the Soviets and the Americans were late, we cant say the startet 1941.
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So when did World War II really begin?

 

[Michiel de Ruyter]

In my opinion, it became a REAL worldwar when Germany, Great Britain and France - at the time three superpowers - went to war with each other. So I voted 1-9-1939.

 

[Kennelly]

WWII?On September 1st 1939.Thats what my history book says and thats what I believe.Of course all the other dates are very important in the course of events leading to WW2,but I don't consider i.e. the Sino-Japanese war as a part of it,just a regional conflict.

 

[Kentonio]

1.9.39, Before that it wasnt a world war.

Kentonio

 

[West German]

When the Germans took the Rhineland back over.

 

[Richard III]

Or, more to the point, it certainly DIDN'T begin when the US was brought into the war in December 1941. It had clearly begun before that.

I think fighting in Abyssinia, Spain, Austria (under Dolfuss), at Khalkin Gol and in China/Manchukuo certainly is closely related to the war, but to say that "the Second World War" started in, say, 1933 - before the Germans had even re-armed - is a bit much. As for the Pacific, it's true that the war began early for China, but it's fairer to describe that as building into the world war than being the world war... it's quite possible to have forseen a scenario where Japan continued fighting China without a World War taking place in the 1939-45 period.

So I voted the obvious choice: September 1939.

R.III

 

[Cunobelin]

You have to look at it in the broader sense as in that ww2 was merely a continuation of ww1. The treaty of versailles made sure of that.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Originally posted by Cunobelin
You have to look at it in the broader sense as in that ww2 was merely a continuation of ww1. The treaty of versailles made sure of that.

It was by no means merely a continuation of WW1. The aims were different, to a large degree the ideology and direction was different and many of the combatants were different.


The Treaty of Versailles never made WW2 inevitable, had it been enforced then Germany would not been able to re-build her military to the extent that she could challenge and defeat the Western Powers (well, France). It was clear throughout the inter-war years that World War could have been avoided had prompt action been taken against Hitlers early aggression.


To say that WW2 happened because of WW1 is too simplistic, too broad as it ignores all that could and should have been done. I consider the Great Depression to have been of massive significance in making WW2 and the rise of militaristic leaders to Germany and Japan and the weakening of the Western Powers.


For me WW2 began with the British and French declaration of war upon Germany as Britain and to a lesser extent France were global powers.

 

[joespaniel]

The Treaty of Versailles had ALOT to do with WWII from the German point of view.

But it was one factor of several.

Hitler was the #1 reason. He was a maglomaniac, and thought he could conquer Europe. He almost did.

As KoC pointed out, the Great Depression was another major factor. It helped Hitler rise to power.

The German "stab in the back" myth, the reluctance of German leaders to support the Weimar Republic...

The list goes on.

As for V's question, September 1st, 1939 gets my vote.

Someone should start another thread to discuss the pre-1941 Japanese war in the Pacific. A worthwhile topic.

 

[holy king]

well the war in europe started on 1 september 1939 ( at 5:45, when the germans began shooting back ;-) ),
but it had its reasons in the versailles treaty
i think its just that easy

 

[Toasty]

August, 1914.

Versailles was an unusually long and unusually harsh cease-fire.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Originally posted by Toasty
August, 1914.

Versailles was an unusually long and unusually harsh cease-fire.

Which we call Peace

 

[Kamilian]

Yea. I think it was when the REAL war began (meaning: when Germany invaded France and the French and British actually DID something other than say "ok we declare war" and just sit there waiting around) in 1940. It grew into a "bigger" world war when the US entered after Pearl Harbor because that really proved that it encompassed the world.

 

[Panda]

September 1st 1939, 5:45 CET.

Yea. I think it was when the REAL war began (meaning: when Germany invaded France and the French and British actually DID something other than say "ok we declare war" and just sit there waiting around) in 1940.

Bombing cities and lobbing artillery shells over the border isn't war? So what is it, a picnic invitation?

 

[Kentonio]

All this talk about the Treaty of Versaille being a ceasefire document in effect is quite far off the mark im afraid. The Treaty of Versaille caused horrendous damage to Germany after WW1 and was the main reason the Weimar Republic collapsed and that Hitler was able to assume control over Germany.

In other words the hash we made of the WW1 surrender terms caused WW2.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

If the terms had been harsh enough and enforced, Germany couldn't have threatened her neighbours again.


That was the whole problem, the treaty did not limit Germany as it wasn't enforced, nor harsh enough and yet it gave a grievance.

 

[SunTzu]

Versailles Treaty and Hitler's rise to power.
If the Versailles Treaty never happened then hitler wouldn't have gotten power, and well, if it isn't obvious, hitler knew that he was going to war when he came into power in 1933.

 

[TheStinger]

1871- Franco Prussian war, sowed the seed of resentment for WW! which led to WW"

 

[Richard III]

Naw, it was the Austro-Prussian war. It created a big Germany, making WWI inevitable, which made WWII inevitable, which made the fall of the Berlin wall inevitable. The only anomoly in the whole timeline since 1815 has, in fact, been the election of Jimmy Carter as President of the United States of America.

R.III

 

[Aphex_Twin]

It was obvioustly the Versailles Treaties. The Allies (especially the French) were eager to punish Germany for the War. Germany was forced to reduce it's army to the size of a police force, scrap most of it's navy and destroy it's airforce. Yet it was not the German people who started the war, but it's leaders. When the Monarchy collapsed, leaving way for the Republic, the german people had to pay for the sins of the aristocracy.

Also, WW1 veterans believed Germany surrendered too fast, and took back all their disillusions and frustrations of the front to society.

After Versailles Germany became a breeding ground for extreme ideologies such as Communism and Nazism. Democracy held out, untill it could hold no more. During the Great Depression, in 1933, Hitler became chancelor of Germany. The rest is history.