When do I want to build a workshop?

By my count it goes like this:

With pigs+farms you end up with the following after 12 turns:
size 2, a granary, 11 food, 12 hammers and a frownie face.

If you work the pig and then mines with the next people you end up with the following after 11 turns:
size 2, 12 food, 5 hammers.

Do yourself a favor and confirm this ingame. I will not be returning if you dismiss this without a very good reason.
Why don't you tell me the specific tiles you are working in the mine situation. Because I have no idea where these numbers are coming from. You are producing 56/7 = 8 hammers a turn with mines at population 2 in your mine example.
 
Pig, mine, mine, whip. And yes i did check it ingame, i got exactly the numbers i said.
 
Hmmmmmmmmm???

Once there was this boy who
Settled all his specialists inside of the capital
And when he went to war
He shook and nuked all over the game board
He couldn't quite explain it
He'd always just done that

Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm
Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm
 
Once there was this boy who
Settled all his specialists inside of the capital
And when he went to war
He shook and nuked all over the game board
He couldn't quite explain it
He'd always just done that

Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm
Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm

"DaveMCW has declared war on Obsolete!!!"
 
Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!

Obsolete launches a nuke on DaveMCW and it EXPLODES!!
 
You must admit launching a nuke is pretty fun. When it kills 30 units with 1 hit then I can't avoid a smile.
 
Pig, mine, mine, whip. And yes i did check it ingame, i got exactly the numbers i said.
You cannot whip you are running caste system.

Remember?

I never claimed that I was providing the most super optimal path to getting the granary out, just that slavery was going to kill caste system which it does.
 
If the whole point of the discussion is what is better for developing fringe cities and you are trying to argue in favor of caste system, then it is odd to say the least to talk of whipping.

The discussion is about caste workshops vs slavery. Not how to slave out a granary quickest (sure using a mine might be quicker, bu I didn't think too much about the situation because all I had to do was beat caste system which was trivial with no thought cause you know caste stinks in this case?

Yes it was lazy of me not to think carefully about the best path for whipping. But since any path for whipping annihilates caste system, that doesn't seem very relevant to be quite honest.
 
You cannot whip you are running caste system.
Never said i was in caste system. This was about what works best for whipping pre-granary. And it was not farms when mines are available.

Anyway we can do this without whipping if you want.

Working the pigs and then the mines will get me to size 4 with a granary, 1 food and 6 hammers after 15 turns.

In the same time the slavery method would get a granary, 23 food and 15 hammers, but only size 3.

You will get the granary up a little faster, yes. But i will grow faster and ultimately turn the city into something useful sooner than you.
 
Clearly Dave is not a Deity AI.

Or should I say Dave's not here man.

Word from my sources is that his cottages are immune to pillaging, fallout, and basically anything that could damage them however. Theory states that this is partially because some of them are located on grassland hills.

If Dave were a deity AI though, Obsolete would probably hit with what? Four of those nukes?
 
Never said i was in caste system. This was about what works best for whipping pre-granary. And it was not farms when mines are available.
No, the discussion if you recall was slavery vs. caste system. And you came down very firmly on the side of caste system. So you cannot return to slavery at that point or what is the point of the discussion

Anyway we can do this without whipping if you want.

Working the pigs and then the mines will get me to size 4 with a granary, 1 food and 6 hammers after 15 turns.

In the same time the slavery method would get a granary, 23 food and 15 hammers, but only size 3.
How do you figure? Are you continuing to work mines after the granary is in? Why in the world would you do that? In the real world if we are at size 2 with a happy cap of 10 and a city has a granary and needs no more infrastructure we work farms. Even if the city needs to build something, now that a granary is in the farms are pretty efficient to be quite honest.

By my numbers by whipping out the granary (using the mines like you pointed out), on turn 15 the whipper is at population 4, 17/28 food and 9 hammers into the next build.

You will get the granary up a little faster, yes. But i will grow faster and ultimately turn the city into something useful sooner than you.

You will? It seems like you are at least 2 turns of growth behind me. And conveniently enough I also have 3 extra hammers into the next build. There isn't one facet of getting that granary out in which caste system was better.

And now that the granary is in place, if anything else needs to be built, whipping kills your mines+workshops. If nothing else needs to be built, then I'm still 2 turns ahead of you in growing to population 10.

Also, how was I ever supposed to figure out that you were whipping until you explicitly said it when you specifically mentioned whip anger for farms+pigs but you never mentioned whip anger for mines+pigs? You think I was intentionally misreading you? Lemme find that for you.

By my count it goes like this:

With pigs+farms you end up with the following after 12 turns:
size 2, a granary, 11 food, 12 hammers and a frownie face.

If you work the pig and then mines with the next people you end up with the following after 11 turns:
size 2, 12 food, 5 hammers.
Notice what the bottom option (that relies on slavery) is missing.
 
No, the discussion if you recall was slavery vs. caste system. And you came down very firmly on the side of caste system. So you cannot return to slavery at that point or what is the point of the discussion
At size 10+, yes. I never said caste was best at low pops. If you dont have the happy and health for size 10 cities by the time you reach guilds you have bigger problems than this argument to worry about.

How do you figure? Are you continuing to work mines after the granary is in? Why in the world would you do that? In the real world if we are at size 2 with a happy cap of 10 and a city has a granary and needs no more infrastructure we work farms. Even if the city needs to build something, now that a granary is in the farms are pretty efficient to be quite honest.
Try it. Build a granary, work the pig and put the next people on mines, you will end up with a granary and size 4.

By my numbers by whipping out the granary (using the mines like you pointed out), on turn 15 the whipper is at population 4, 17/28 food and 9 hammers into the next build.
I thought you were sticking with farms. But yes, intelligent use of slavery beats caste system at low pops.

And while your small cities are growing a little faster than mine, my important cities have more production than yours. Ill take the extra troops and more wonders over growing my less important cities a little faster any day.

As for the misreading part, you were saying i worked 2 mines instead of a pig+mine at size 2. That is quite frankly insulting.
 
At size 10+, yes. I never said caste was best at low pops. If you dont have the happy and health for size 10 cities by the time you reach guilds you have bigger problems than this argument to worry about.
We have the happy and health for size 10. I've already given you that. But did you know that sometimes even when your health cap and happy cap are 10, you are still founding cities and they need to be developed to grow to the cap and be productive as soon as possible? Cities aren't born at the caps (I think you know this).

Are you even reading my posts?

Consider a large empire 6 core cities. 1 has all the hills it needs. Two would be boosted by workshops as opposed to having to whip. The others are not worried about production as they are doing other tasks. The other 11 cities in the empire are small and need to be developed to grow to the happy cap as soon as possible.

This empire can exist.

Slavery is clearly superior (a boost to 11 cities becoming productive at the expense of minor production boosts in 2 core cities). It really isn't even close.
 
And again i ask, what kind of infrastructure do you want?

If those 11 cities are commerce cities, all you need is a granary and maybe a library. Then when you reach size 10+ you can build stuff while getting commerce, as opposed to merely building stuff. And i have said this before, but if they are production cities then you want them to reach full capacity which still means growing big instead of whipping.
 
They grow big faster by whipping. You see already the 2 turns of growth that whipping has gained on caste system just in getting the granary out. You think that will improve for caste now that whipping is more efficient? Not a chance. Working mines or workshops stunts the growth of a city in just a real and meaningful way as whipping. If you don't believe it test it.

I will answer again.

I've given you the challenge. Get to population 10 with 7 cottages available to work. You are given 1 worker to start and 1 improved tile (the pigs). Nothing else is improved. You can pick whichever civic you want for no anarchy at the start but once you pick it you CANNOT change.

Or alternatively, again population 10 but with a forge and barracks out. No changing civics once you pick your poison.

Why you do you keep saying "what type of infrastructure?" when I have very clearly laid out to reasonable possibilities for infrastructure you might want (forge + barracks, or 7 cottages).
 
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