When do you build courthouses?

[jauggy]

Simple question - what is the ideal time to build courthouses? Do you build them in all cities, or just cities with maintenance above a certain amount?

Is it possible to win a domination game without building a single courthouse?

EDIT: Just to clarify the second question, I am assuming you do not get state property. The idea was to follow TMIT's strategy of building just granary, barracks, border pop, and choosing between build wealth/units. I assume this strategy would involve lots of war and likely domination prior to state property.

EDIT2: I asked TMIT, and state property is eventually used but taking over civs still occurs before the use of state property.

 

[LastLegionare]

Build courthouses on colonies UNLESS you change them to a vassal. They require way to much to maintain without. Also, if you have a rather smallish map, you can get by with a well placed Versaieles (never could spell it right) and a Forbidden City.

 

[iggymnrr]

First question: You'll get a lot of answers to this.
Second question: Yes, many ways to do this. Conquest too. I believe there is a deity level game by Moonsinger where conquest was achieved using quechas exclusively in like 150 turns on (I think) a standard sized map. Obviously, no courthouses.

 

[DaveMcW]

Is it possible to win a domination game without building a single courthouse?

Yes, get State Property before you start conquering.

 

[Monsterzuma]

When I wish I could 4-pop whip hammers into Wealth.

 

[ABigCivFan]

I normally build courthouses in my production cities (poor commerce) or cities far away from the capital. Usually after Granary/monument, AP monastery/temple and Forge. Maint. savings can be significant and the added EPs can be useful to see the top AI's research.

In commerce cities, often library,markets and etc are more superior to courthouses.

 

[fenrus]

I'm curious about this too, there are too many vague answers. People say "far away", but what is considered far away? I see decimals in the maintenance, do they actually work?

ie. 5 maintenance, 50% is 2.5. So is the actual maintenance for that city 2, 2.5, or 3?

What's the maintenance threshold most people use before they go "I must build a courthouse NAO!".

 

[Riot]

I'm curious about this too, there are too many vague answers. People say "far away", but what is considered far away? I see decimals in the maintenance, do they actually work?

ie. 5 maintenance, 50% is 2.5. So is the actual maintenance for that city 2, 2.5, or 3?

What's the maintenance threshold most people use before they go "I must build a courthouse NAO!".

When you need more cash!

Basically look at your finances, check to see if you can run the science slider any higher, check your distant cities. When maintenance starts reaching double digits that's when I usually start considering a courthouse.

Generally, the farther away from your capital, and the bigger a city is population-wise, the bigger the maintenance build.

 

[ABigCivFan]

What's the maintenance threshold most people use before they go "I must build a courthouse NAO!".

In this game, any building that gives 50% improvement of base is great. However it is not just the maint threshold that determines whether you should build a courthouse. It depends on you empire-wide priorities:

1. Are you 1 university away from unlocking Oxford? Globe theater? (if yes, then whip a university rather than a courthouse)
2. Are you focusing on war production? (if yes, whip that Treb instead of a courthouse)
3. Are you building wealth to hurry a key tech? (If yes, then build wealth and keep your science slider high to finish the research)

If your cities are just building infrastructure then you should consider build courthouse in commerce poor cities right after hammer improving buildings. And in the commerce rich cities, if a library/market help the beakers/coins more than the courthouse savings, then build courthouse After the library/Markets.

 

[katipunero]

courthouses i think mitigate corporation branch expenses. BUG says i will save around 50-60 coins.

 

[mariogreymist]

Simple question - what is the ideal time to build courthouses?

Not so simple answer: when the reduction in expenses will allow for further expansion or a significantly better research rate. Must be worth the invested as well: if you can put the production into axes/cats instead and take a neighbor's shrine city, it's a better investment. Also keep in mind that ORG leaders get cheap courthouses, and they are cheap enough to whip off two pop to get, making them very reasonable if you have lots of food.

Do you build them in all cities, or just cities with maintenance above a certain amount?

Only in cities where the savings is sufficient to warrant the invested. For ORG leaders, this usually means everywhere but the capital. The higher the maintenance expenses, the better they are. As a rule of thumb, if 1 or 2 courthouses will let you bump the slider or found another quality city, build them. (3-4 for org leaders)

Is it possible to win a domination game without building a single courthouse?

As was said, state property makes this very possible.

 

[PartAnon]

The main problem is that a courthouse is expensive. 120 and X number of turns spent building it (plus the maintenance that the city pays during those turns), in order to wind up saving 5/turn isn't necessarily the best idea if you stack it up against all of the alternatives. So as you get more resourceful about ways to increase income, reduce maintenance, and acquire the techs you need, courthouses become less essential.

I tend to whip them in captured cities, along with theatres, when maintenance is 10+ (that is the threshold that Sisiutil suggested to me which I now use) and there are no good workable commerce tiles within borders.

 

[UncleJJ]

Simple question - what is the ideal time to build courthouses? Do you build them in all cities, or just cities with maintenance above a certain amount?

When they are the most cost effective building (which is nearly always in the early game) and I don't need units, settlers or workers desperately. I do build them in (nearly) all cities and I anticipate what the maintenance will be in the future, when the city has grown larger and when I have more cities. The cost of maintenance has 2 components in the early game, a) distance and b) number of cities, and both vary with city size, so anticipate city growth. The a) component is fixed by the city position (until the FP is built) but the b) one grows as more cities are founded or captured until it is capped at 7 gold (on emperor / immortal). I like to make use of EPs as well so the sooner I get courthouses the sooner I can start spying and the more resistant I am to enemy spies.

Is it possible to win a domination game without building a single courthouse?

EDIT: Just to clarify the second question, I am assuming you do not get state property. The idea was to follow TMIT's strategy of building just granary, barracks, border pop, and choosing between build wealth/units. I assume this strategy would involve lots of war and likely domination prior to state property.

Technically, yes you can win such a game without courthouses, but why would you if it was better to win with courthouses? The decision to build a courthouse is an economic decision. Take an extreme example to make the point. When a city is costing 20 maintenance per turn (and with inflation at say 100% add another 20) it is rather silly to build say 20 wealth in that city (and still lose 20 gold / turn ) when in 6 turns you could cut the maintenace by 10 and the inflation by 10. After the courthouse THEN build wealth, in that situation and the city will break even.

 

[UncleJJ]

If your cities are just building infrastructure then you should consider build courthouse in commerce poor cities right after hammer improving buildings. And in the commerce rich cities, if a library/market help the beakers/coins more than the courthouse savings, then build courthouse After the library/Markets.

I normally rush the courthouse in production / whipping cities before the forge if I have OR but otherwise I agree with you after forge it is the most important infrastructure.

For commerce cities I find it hard to understand your advice here. In what circumstance can a library or market give a better economic return than a courthouse? In the early game the cottages (if they are the main source of commerce) will have a low output although it will grow slowly. A library and market could have other reasons for being preferred if culture or happiness is needed but on strict economic grounds they usually lose when you take the slider into account. A courthouse makes its saving and gives its EPs every turn regardless of the slider.

I would be interested in a worked example where you can justify your advice for a commerce city on simple economic grounds Let's assume that 1 beaker = 1 gold = 1 EP for arguments sake (since I do use EPs in all games)

 

[Artichoker]

In a 6-city empire with close distance between cities, a Courthouse is usually not necessary, and other kinds of buildings are generally more preferable (unless you're Organized or have a UB that replaces the Courthouse).

Courthouses are useful when you have larger empires, or you are planning to expand to large size in the near future. They're also excellent for reducing maintenance costs from corporations.

 

[ABigCivFan]

For commerce cities I find it hard to understand your advice here. In what circumstance can a library or market give a better economic return than a courthouse? In the early game the cottages (if they are the main source of commerce) will have a low output although it will grow slowly. A library and market could have other reasons for being preferred if culture or happiness is needed but on strict economic grounds they usually lose when you take the slider into account. A courthouse makes its saving and gives its EPs every turn regardless of the slider.

I would be interested in a worked example where you can justify your advice for a commerce city on simple economic grounds Let's assume that 1 beaker = 1 gold = 1 EP for arguments sake (since I do use EPs in all games)

Commerce rich city: take a city working gold/gem/silver+cottages+2 trade routes with total of 20 base commerce, running 100% science slider, library gives 5 more . Its maint is 5/turn, a courthouse get it down to 2.5/turn + 2 EP. However, in most of the game, especially early game, >>>, so in this case, build library before courthouse.

A food rich city, running merchants under Caste to support high science slider, market can easily be better than a courthouse.

There is no right answer to this kind of over-generalized questions, but with more experience and a little bit of math, one can easily make a decision of whether to build and when to build any improvement.

 

[mirthadir]

I normally rush the courthouse in production / whipping cities before the forge if I have OR but otherwise I agree with you after forge it is the most important infrastructure.

For commerce cities I find it hard to understand your advice here. In what circumstance can a library or market give a better economic return than a courthouse? In the early game the cottages (if they are the main source of commerce) will have a low output although it will grow slowly. A library and market could have other reasons for being preferred if culture or happiness is needed but on strict economic grounds they usually lose when you take the slider into account. A courthouse makes its saving and gives its EPs every turn regardless of the slider.

I would be interested in a worked example where you can justify your advice for a commerce city on simple economic grounds Let's assume that 1 beaker = 1 gold = 1 EP for arguments sake (since I do use EPs in all games)

With under 6 cities and no crazy colonial/distance modifiers the savings from a courthouse are pretty weak. With 100% science (say you are running failure cash off wonders) and 10 upkeep loses once your total hits 20; which is three commerce resource tiles, 5-6 riverside FIN cottages (or non-fin hamlets), or ~8 2 tiles (riverside normal cottages, seafood, inland lakes, etc.). Or a combination thereof. With GLH, overseas trade, or culture concerns, it is trivial for a library to to give better return per than a courthouse in a cottage city. If you have some minimal whip production (e.g. you have a wet corn to work and no ability to increase happy cap) then libraries come online FAR sooner than CHs.

I still build CHs like mad, but I often find Lib first is a far better move.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Courthouses don't seem to get as much love as they used to, but I still get them ASAP. Around the time I get access to them, my economy is usually straining under city/unit maintenance, so it makes sense to start spamming them instead of postponing them in favor of more cities and units, which would just exacerbate the problem. Not to mention, courthouses are second or third in build queue in new cities, and they open up access to Forbidden Palace. Courthouses give you a lot of breathing room in expansion that you wouldn't have without them. And they produce EP to boot, which can make a big difference when you get them up before your rivals can.

 

[UncleJJ]

ABigCivFan and mirthadir: I'm not that impressed by the need to run at 100% research for your arguments. It's possible to do that for a short time using gold from other sources and deficit research, but it's not a long term solution to be relied on. That won't work well if you REX hard or use conquest since the gold will be haemorrhaging from multiple under developed cities.

A better estimate might use a long term 70% slider, in which case you'd need 30 commerce for a library to give the same benefit as a courthouse. That is a lot of commerce in the early game when founding a new city. I find that the most cost effective way to found a new cottage based commerce city is to build a courthouse after a granary otherwise the commerce it gives is leeched away in maintenace as the city grows in size. If I'm expanding fast then I just can't rely on the slider being above 50%, let alone 100% . In that circumstance a courthouse wins over a library and it continues to give its benefits regardless of the slider setting. The benefit is overtaken by a library later in the game when the cottages mature but as the city grows and the empire increases the number of cities the benefit from the courthouse also increases.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The deity players typically can't get enough cities to run into the "expanding fast" issue (or if they do it's long before they'll have access to courthouses!). Also, the AI has way more gold available for trade on that level, so maxed out deficit research for long stretches is more plausible.

There are exceptions, but when you combine relatively close cities and a limited count initially, it's not hard to see why courthouses drop in priority.