When do you build courthouses?

[jauggy]

A sample game of TMIT building no courthouses I found is here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8881562&postcount=32

In TMIT's game he eventually used state property between the rifle and infantry war.



I tried a similar strategy on my difficulty level, which is Monarch/marathon, and I managed to win without even getting into state property. I won with cannons and grenadiers as my most powerful troops. Below are the stats for my game.

 

[UncleJJ]

Is the actual value truncated or does it just display the truncation?

I believe the values are truncated. If you look at a city screen in the late game, when truncation of the displayed trade routes is occuring, there doesn't seem to be any "mystery commerce" unaccounted for by all the displayed sources. I conclude there is actual truncation and it is not merely the display.

My point more is I've never finished building a harbor and watched my net output drop.

A harbour will not reduce the value of the trade routes in the city it is in. But it can cause better trade routes to move to this city, thereby depriving other cities with (potentially) better economic multipliers of trade income. I have never witnessed an actual drop in overall output, but that is not a good test of this effect and is unecessary. By merely examining the good city it is easy to see it has worse trade routes, so the income from this source must fall and is not compensated for by the rise in the city with the harbour (which can be seen by inspecting this city).

 

[mirthadir]

You don't need to avoid CoL to avoid bulbing philosophy. If you don't have meditation, theology, or civil service you will bulb towards astro rather than towards philosophy or liberalism.

True. However if I want to gamble on astro and lib I want the Paya, particularly without trading astro around, the Paya can be huge. Early FR is great for research (an instant bonus in all cities vs slow building CHs in the low cities) and flipping into a GA running caste after swapping optics/calendar for CoL gives me good odds of winning the lib race (maybe even for Sci Meth) with a very quick set of bulbs.

UJJ: I have never put effort into optimizing trade route destinations beyond growing my strongest cities (usually the cap) in order to maximize their results; however if I have a GLH game, at least half the time this comes from a coastal cap and a good shot at a coastal Oxford. Realistically how much would spamming harbors cost? Aside from stealing out of a multiple mons, lib, academy city, you are swapping from one set of multipliers to another. This definitely downgrades the harbor, but I'm curios as to how much in practice.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The game auto-maxes your total trade route yield. You won't pull routes from a "better" city unless you're doing something funny with city growth vs multipliers.

 

[DaveMcW]

Auto-maxing trade route yield is not the same as auto-maxing beakers/gold after multipliers...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Auto-maxing trade route yield is not the same as auto-maxing beakers/gold after multipliers...

True, but are you really getting harbors in place in the weaker multiplier cities first? It could happen, but it isn't super likely. If both cities have harbors it's the same as before, so it turns into a question of which place builds them first.

But if they're that high of a priority, they probably are or were in the stronger, earlier cities, too.

There are exceptions but this isn't a terrifically big consideration usually.

 

[UncleJJ]

UJJ: I have never put effort into optimizing trade route destinations beyond growing my strongest cities (usually the cap) in order to maximize their results; however if I have a GLH game, at least half the time this comes from a coastal cap and a good shot at a coastal Oxford. Realistically how much would spamming harbors cost? Aside from stealing out of a multiple mons, lib, academy city, you are swapping from one set of multipliers to another. This definitely downgrades the harbor, but I'm curios as to how much in practice.

I have had several trade based games using the GLH and castles and airports (avoiding Economy). One with Izzy where I kept the Citadels and GLH into the endgame where I was building artillery and gunships. I learned a lot about trade routes from micro managing that game (patch 3.13 IIRC). That's where I came to the conclusion that most people don't understand how the GLH contributes to their economy, their emphasis on foriegn trade routes is misplaced, they should concentrate on domestic routes.

If all your cities have roughly equivalent economic multipliers then it won't matter much where the trade routes end up and harbours will generally be beneficial since they boost the trade routes. The effect is most notable when you have good trade routes going to your inland capital (due to its size), with Oxford and an academy etc. and you build a harbour in a mid sized coastal city. If that new city has no science multipliers you could lose maybe 20 or 30 beakers (depending on the changes in the value of the trade routes). I suppose the best advice to minimise this downside is don't build a harbour in a city before you've built the economic multipliers. If you have a lot of coastal cities with harbours it's unlikely that you can match up good trade routes with Oxford, if it is built inland. But trade routes aren't that important if Oxford has been built in a really good inland site, each good trade route is roughly equivalent to a town.

True, but are you really getting harbors in place in the weaker multiplier cities first? It could happen, but it isn't super likely.

Well, if you'd been following the discussion, that is exactly what Mirthandir was suggesting, (see item 5 in post # 29) building harbours early in a coastal city, hence my criticism, hence our discussion.

 

[mariogreymist]

UJJ: With this GLH/Castles/Airports combo...How early do you start intercontinental warring (assumine a single landmass start)? I would expect it would be almost necessary to have galleons waiting for your treb/cannon upgrades after a lib->steel shot to make that work on any level over prince. And when you do this, do you forgo the GLib? I assume SciMeth (prereq for communism, artillery) is extremely high on the priority list.

 

[mirthadir]

I have had several trade based games using the GLH and castles and airports (avoiding Economy). One with Izzy where I kept the Citadels and GLH into the endgame where I was building artillery and gunships. I learned a lot about trade routes from micro managing that game (patch 3.13 IIRC). That's where I came to the conclusion that most people don't understand how the GLH contributes to their economy, their emphasis on foriegn trade routes is misplaced, they should concentrate on domestic routes.

If all your cities have roughly equivalent economic multipliers then it won't matter much where the trade routes end up and harbours will generally be beneficial since they boost the trade routes. The effect is most notable when you have good trade routes going to your inland capital (due to its size), with Oxford and an academy etc. and you build a harbour in a mid sized coastal city. If that new city has no science multipliers you could lose maybe 20 or 30 beakers (depending on the changes in the value of the trade routes). I suppose the best advice to minimise this downside is don't build a harbour in a city before you've built the economic multipliers. If you have a lot of coastal cities with harbours it's unlikely that you can match up good trade routes with Oxford, if it is built inland. But trade routes aren't that important if Oxford has been built in a really good inland site, each good trade route is roughly equivalent to a town.



Well, if you'd been following the discussion, that is exactly what Mirthandir was suggesting, (see item 5 in post # 29) building harbours early in a coastal city, hence my criticism, hence our discussion.

Well, when I'd consider building a harbor before a lib or CH would be in circumstances where Oxford is out the window; for isolation + GLH games I might even forgo the early academy in order to bulb astro faster. When I was working on my isolated starts I found the power of GLH -> (Paya/Parth -> TGL or MoM) -> optics ASAP -> trade for Cal/alpha -> astro -> trade for other techs (hopefully tech brokering) to be rather extreme. In those circumstances every city had all trade routes as foreign overseas routes by the time I completed circumnavigation. Harbor was better than CH in some weak/late founded cities (in terms of raw yields). Even with just a small number of galley civs over the water; I've found that the extra time it takes to whip/build out a CH can make a harbor a better bet for long enough to make me go that way.

I do agree that domestic trade is the bigger thing for GLH games, but with early astro isolated starts have pretty decent odds of getting overseas domestic routes pretty quick.

 

[UncleJJ]

UJJ: With this GLH/Castles/Airports combo...How early do you start intercontinental warring (assumine a single landmass start)? I would expect it would be almost necessary to have galleons waiting for your treb/cannon upgrades after a lib->steel shot to make that work on any level over prince. And when you do this, do you forgo the GLib? I assume SciMeth (prereq for communism, artillery) is extremely high on the priority list.

I've played several games following that tech path and they turned out differently. The essential idea is to keep the GLH in play as long as possible. In one game I had a nearby landmass that I invaded with 3 galleys and several trips back and forth. Having cities on another landmass is very useful with the GLH, it makes the domestic trade routes better. Coastal cities just need a granary, lighthouse, and courthouse to pay off and contribute to the economy.

But you're right, galleons are the time that I usually start intercontinental warring, supported by frigates. Then I tech towards Flight which gives Combustion on the way, so I get destroyers and transports as well as oil. I don't usually bother with other wonders too much, although I try to capture some. You're right the GLib is not particularly useful since it will be obsoleted quickly. The advantage of this tech path is you can soon get the Kremlin and that is more than compensation for losing the GLib.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Trade routes have low setup costs so you should be able to fly down towards combustion/flight if you go that route. There are very few things that massed fighters + cavalry or some such can't kill.

 

[Iranon]

Courthouses make sense very early or very late.

They're an economic benefit that's in full effect even if you generate little in the ways of beakers and gold, therefore building them early makes sense if you intend to focus on hammers until all multipliers are in place (then switch to economy).

If you want decent short- to mid-term yields and avoid building excess infrastructure, you can usually do better than bulding courthouses, unless espionage matters to you.

*

Difficulty level also has something to do with it. I like expanding hard on Immortal because a decent-sized empire with good infrastructure will reliably get me into a favourable position; courthouses are often an early priority.
On Deity, expanding enough that courthouses pull their weight can carry significant opportunity costs... it's usually possible but rarely desirable in my opinion. On Immortal I usually aim for around a dozen cities at 1AD unless I'm trying to hog wonders; on Deity, I often settle for half that.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hey iranon, the next time you get into a game where you can manage to vulture a game-changing # of cities off the AI on immortal or deity, would you mind grabbing some screen shots or a save? I'm interested in the reads that lead to that but I'd like to see the technique in practice.

 

[iggymnrr]

One way to get that many cities is to have a neighboring AI quit inexplicably stop expanding after settling a second city. I've seen it happen on emperor where 1000 AD rolls around and, yep, AI has only 2 cities and still hasn't expanded onto good sized, resource-filled islands 2 tiles away. Nonsense AI. Wonder mode? Wonder failure gold mode? Mistaken culture win mode? Don't know why this happens.

 

[mariogreymist]

TMIT, UJJ: I have a related spin off question of the discussion of skipping econ/corps with the glh. I am playing an emperor level game where I started isolated on a large continent. (see here for details beyond this descriptio) I am playing mehmed, so skipping courthouses would have been silly, so not really related to the op. The reason I am posting this here, is i'd like some feedback from the people espousing the glh/castles/SP rushbuy tactic here in this thread. (not sure if TMIT or UJJ will see it in the thread I posted)

Anyway, I have myself in an early industrial position (just researched SciMeth. My manufacturing is pathetic, my trade excellent. I have Jannisaries now, but they won't do much against most enemies who are using muskets at this point. No other civ has the prereqs for communism yet, and I have a GE waiting to help rush the Kremlin, so I can probably live with not being the first to get it. (though the spy is nice) My military is very weak, and I am going to have to do a round of serious drafting soon. I'd rather wait for rifling. So here's the question: should I gamble on losing the Kremlin by researching rifling before communism? The downside here is my very weak mfg and complete lack of iron, meaning all my warring will be done post-artillery. But what the heck...It's a challenge! I've never beaten emperor without playing Rome on a duel map against a chosen opponent....so it's kind of interesting to be in the game this late for me.

I would really appreciate feedback on this, so if UJJ or TMIT can get back to me on this game, I'd be thrilled.

 

[UncleJJ]

I would really appreciate feedback on this, so if UJJ or TMIT can get back to me on this game, I'd be thrilled.

I took a quick look at the savegame. I think you should press on and try to get the Kremlin, you do have stone and a waiting GE. You don't have iron but do have oil so that changes things greatly from my normal advice, as cannons and frigates need iron. You could get iron from Joa but he wants 77 gold and 2 resources . If you do that pre-build some trebuchets and caravels and then trade for the iron and upgrade them, then go liberate some iron from another benefactor (maybe Joa himself). But I wouldn't do that here.

I would aim to make war with destroyers and carriers, that gives you time to build up your economy. Use rifles, machine guns, cavalry and artillery. If you get Kremlin then I would either research or trade for Democracy and then run US, FS and emancipation. Rush buying with the extra gold from trade routes could build a powerful CE economy

Comment on game so far: You have far too many cottages (for my taste) and many in the wrong places , far too few farms in cities that are desperate for food and you have blocked lots of chain irrigation. In this situation I would have (note past tense) used the a lot more farms to give food for growth and whipping out key infrastructure. Spare food goes to build more workers or settlers (while whip unhappiness subsides) and runs specialists in cities with loads of food. Mehmet with GLH is perfect for this coastal city spam, the trade routes plus coastal tiles pay for the city once you've whipped the courthouse. Use that city to help make the next in a chain reaction. With stone I would add walls and castles for the trade route in some cities after the basic granary, lighthouse, courthouse and harbour (Mehmet gets +100% on all those). That could have colonised the island faster and you'd have more workers and more infrastructure. Every cottage that could be a farm costs the city 1 food, sometimes food is more important than extra commerce.

However, we currently have loads of cottages and many are already towns. FS would be good but it might be best to wait for Kremlin (I can't remember if a GE will build it completely). Try to grow your cities much closer to your happy limits and work as many tiles as possible. Build universities before observatories (now you have Education). Upgrade some galleys to galleons and shift some workers to the other part of your land that is totally undeveloped. You need more workers and since this is marathon it's better to concentrate them so they make a difference and get the new cities kickstarted.

Good luck, I'll let TMIT win it for you he plays 10 times faster than me

 

[PieceOfMind]

Regarding the "truncation" of trade route yields, I thought it might be worth mentioning the BULL mod has an optional component called Fractional Trade Routes, written by EmperorFool, which adds up all trade routes with the multipliers applied with 2 decimal places, before the truncation. This makes it closer to how hammer multipliers work on base hammers. That is, hammers from all sources are added up, the multipliers are applied to the total and then truncated.

With such a mod, I'd be interested in seeing how it changes the desirability of harbours. I intend to add it to the next release of PIG.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

TMIT, UJJ: I have a related spin off question of the discussion of skipping econ/corps with the glh. I am playing an emperor level game where I started isolated on a large continent. (see here for details beyond this descriptio) I am playing mehmed, so skipping courthouses would have been silly, so not really related to the op. The reason I am posting this here, is i'd like some feedback from the people espousing the glh/castles/SP rushbuy tactic here in this thread. (not sure if TMIT or UJJ will see it in the thread I posted)

Anyway, I have myself in an early industrial position (just researched SciMeth. My manufacturing is pathetic, my trade excellent. I have Jannisaries now, but they won't do much against most enemies who are using muskets at this point. No other civ has the prereqs for communism yet, and I have a GE waiting to help rush the Kremlin, so I can probably live with not being the first to get it. (though the spy is nice) My military is very weak, and I am going to have to do a round of serious drafting soon. I'd rather wait for rifling. So here's the question: should I gamble on losing the Kremlin by researching rifling before communism? The downside here is my very weak mfg and complete lack of iron, meaning all my warring will be done post-artillery. But what the heck...It's a challenge! I've never beaten emperor without playing Rome on a duel map against a chosen opponent....so it's kind of interesting to be in the game this late for me.

I would really appreciate feedback on this, so if UJJ or TMIT can get back to me on this game, I'd be thrilled.

You are quite some distance from both communism and rifling, having done CS ----> astro. The short answer is definitely communism before rifling if you can stay alive doing it. You are justinian's worst enemy so you could consider FR or at least pushing him to +4 trade (or running theo, which he likes).

Now, your main issue here is the lack of specialization. I do like carpeting entire landmasses in cottages, but you could use some GPP to go with that (as in better specialize a city for it). At least one hammer city, particularly since you either have or at least can unlock heroic epic using barbs, would be nice too. With a HE hammer city you can probably bang out enough units to cover monarchy growth early and survival later w/o investing much in the other cities.

I would make a serious case for democracy here given your # of cottages, too.

 

[Iranon]

Hey iranon, the next time you get into a game where you can manage to vulture a game-changing # of cities off the AI on immortal or deity, would you mind grabbing some screen shots or a save? I'm interested in the reads that lead to that but I'd like to see the technique in practice.

I'm *horrible* at demonstration games.

I'll always go 'hmm, start was too good... not representative' or 'hmm, unusual blocking opportunities' or 'just a typical case of snatching the GLH and island city spam which isn't really the point' or 'does active choking with a phony war or two count?'
Given my glacial playing speed, this will take a while...

I'll look out if I get a good example though.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You don't need to do a special writeup just for me and whoever else has enough focus on other game details to pick up on it , just take a screen shot or a save from a game when you happen to choose to do it. Start doesn't matter. There's no way it's going to be viable in every game anyway (almost nothing is viable in every game outside of basic micro decisions).