When do you get Metal Casting?

[Ramesses-Rules]

For you guys who play Industrious trait leaders, at what point in your teching do you normally go for Metal Casting? I think I tend to wait too long, considering the benefits of Forges. One logical place to do it is right after I get Ironworking from somebody in trade for Alphabet, but that is also the time I get Mathematics from somebody else and my economy needs Calendar/Currency/COL. After that, I often still do not go for Metal Casting but probably should. Anyway, when do you usually get it? Since we Industrious guys can build Forges 50% faster, it makes sense that we should go for it faster than other leaders do. Right?

 

[vicawoo]

Mostly for extra happiness without having to go HR/revolt. You can often trade for it, though, as it's not a good monopoly tech.

Consider how many hammers you have to produce before it breaks even. For non-industrious, it's 480 hammers (with no roundoff). For industrious, 240. This makes it pretty bad for medieval/catapult wars, bad compared to wealth for winning liberalism, except for industrious, but decent for future gunpowder/cavalry/cannon wars.

 

[Casi]

Industrious = Oracle >>> Metal Casting.
Should always be the goal (cept on Deity), no matter if you play peacefully/warmonger.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Mostly for extra happiness without having to go HR/revolt. You can often trade for it, though, as it's not a good monopoly tech.

Consider how many hammers you have to produce before it breaks even. For non-industrious, it's 480 hammers (with no roundoff). For industrious, 240. This makes it pretty bad for medieval/catapult wars, bad compared to wealth for winning liberalism, except for industrious, but decent for future gunpowder/cavalry/cannon wars.

So, how would you answer my question about where MC should fit in my teching sequence. On my current level (Immortal), I can't trade Alphabet for it because by the time I get Alpha, the other civs either don't have it yet and the military dudes who do won't trade it. To get it in a trade, I think I would have to wait til quite a bit later when I have something more valuable to trade, and by then, I am past the time that I -- as Industrious leader -- should have already had it. Do you see the issue? So, my question stands: Assuming I am going to tech, at what point should I at least be THINKING about getting it?

 

[babybluepants]

Oracling MC with IND is an awesome move. Otherwise, it's not such a good tech to go for, IMHO. It's expensive and has virtually no trade value on Imm+ unless Oracled, since AI go for it relatively early. COL/Currency/CS is almost always the most valuable set of techs in the late BC's, for obvious economic reasons. Aest-Lit-Music is also really strong with marble (less so with just IND, but certainly possible), and Music has enough trade value to get you things like MC.

 

[coanda]

There are five situations that come to mind I might explicitly tech Metal Casting.
1. Industrious, Oracle -> MC as mentioned.
2. Water-heavy maps for Colossus (if I have Copper and reasonably good early capital production and commerce).
3. As part of a Machinery beeline as China.
4. If it's been a loong time and I'm starting to want a later tech which relies on it.
5. If I'm playing at Monarch or below and have a good start going, and think it might just be a while before the AI will get it for me.
Otherwise, it's a tech that's usually available soon-ish for trade after Alphabet and soon for theft after Code of Laws + Alphabet, and the improvement is expensive enough that I don't want to be building it until after my initials REX or rushes are done.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Oracling MC with IND is an awesome move. Otherwise, it's not such a good tech to go for, IMHO. It's expensive and has virtually no trade value on Imm+ unless Oracled, since AI go for it relatively early. COL/Currency/CS is almost always the most valuable set of techs in the late BC's, for obvious economic reasons. Aest-Lit-Music is also really strong with marble (less so with just IND, but certainly possible), and Music has enough trade value to get you things like MC.

Let me see if I have this right. Since I play for Cultural Victory and, say, I have Marble, I should try to get it with Oracle. Otherwise, just wait til I can trade Music for it. Humm, that is about what i have been doing, but I thought I was wrong. I always try to get them in all my cities to build all the Temples and Cathedrals.

 

[rabbitheart]

I mostly ignore metal casing until i can get it from one of the AI, its expensive to tech it yourself at the beginning and like people had said the AI goes for it quite quickly. Skipping it allows you to have more chance of winning liberalism.

If i wanted it i would use the oracle to take it otherwise just trade for it with the AI.

 

[Rosiel]

I usually delay it too, despite almost always playing with industrious leaders.

The -health from forges usually hurts me in the cities that would need it more that early in the game. Ie cities with high production, with cleared forests, most of the times located in no-fresh water tiles.

As already mentioned, It also delays me on my liberalism race, which is almost always a priority for me.

Things of course can change with oracle. If I have iron working, usually only a case when I had no copper nearby, I'll take it as my free tech.

 

[babybluepants]

You don't need IW for MC.

 

[Rosiel]

You don't need IW for MC.

something's wrong

 

[ahcos]

depends on

a) happy resources boosted by forges - silver/gold -> forges are awesome, without it can be delayed..
b) victory route - if i aim for steel from lib i like to have forges built already :>
c) leader - as mentioned, IND is nice for forges.
d) cityplacement and/or map outlay - with overall good production i like to get forges early to enhance my advantage i already have.

in most of my games it comes after CS or so, maybe 500 A.D., but that pretty much depends on everything that happens in the game.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

depends on

a) happy resources boosted by forges - silver/gold -> forges are awesome, without it can be delayed..
b) victory route - if i aim for steel from lib i like to have forges built already :>
c) leader - as mentioned, IND is nice for forges.
d) cityplacement and/or map outlay - with overall good production i like to get forges early to enhance my advantage i already have.

in most of my games it comes after CS or so, maybe 500 A.D., but that pretty much depends on everything that happens in the game.

As an Industrious leader, I often spam wonders in Thebes. If one civ has forges and the other doesn't, that can alter the outcome of a wonder-building race. I hate coming up 2 turns short on a big wonder! And even if I would have won without a forge, building it SOONER has synergy effects downstream.

 

[kossin]

Backfill unless doing a specific beeline.

 

[pi-r8]

You're the guy who never bought BtS right? I don't really know how it works in warlords. In BtS you can trade for it pretty easilly (paper is good for this, or philosophy if they have something else you want). The only times I research it myself is for some kind of varient play, like taking it from the oracle, or maybe if I want to bulb liberalism and no one else has researched it yet.

 

[mirthadir]

MC is strong Oracle bait for IND. Getting it early let's you drop forges, trade for Mono (and whatever else) for another +25% letting you fly through wonders (if only for failure cash).

If not, well the and bonuses are great, but normally it is such an easy trade (once the Wonder is gone) and so limited for brokering; better to open the Philo bulb or gun CS in a lot of games.

Beelines are somewhat useful:
a. Machinery; China and NA can do well with this. The CKN has no real counter and if you can get here before the AI gets construction you should have an easy war to win. NA archery untis are, of course, insane. While I normally try for an early LB push if I'm going to abuse SB, this can be better with a strong setup.
c. Engineering. Okay the AI LOVES this one, but beelining here quick let's you rip apart the AI trebs, pike + xbows vs LBs + garbage. HRE is slightly better, but I actually think this shot is stronger with CHA leaders if you can swing trades/GGs for 7 XP siege out of the box (CRIII trebs before castles or knights are insanely strong).
d. Guilds. Okay knights suck; their counter comes before they exist and they are only strong if the AI lacks Fe. However, catas are insane and camel archers can be decent. With some strong luck out to around Emp you can pull off maybe one war of archers vs knights (or replacement), but with Justinian or Sal this can be a very solid beeline.
f. Optics/Astro. In isolation you need to either commit to a highly efficient economy until the AI finds you (lots of wonder whoring and most likely cottages) or you need to commtt to finding the AI. Even when you are aren't completely isolated, getting access to more AIs can often be the biggest multiplier in the game. It is completely acceptable to get the basic worker techs and then to gun optics.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

You're the guy who never bought BtS right? I don't really know how it works in warlords. In BtS you can trade for it pretty easilly (paper is good for this, or philosophy if they have something else you want). The only times I research it myself is for some kind of varient play, like taking it from the oracle, or maybe if I want to bulb liberalism and no one else has researched it yet.

Right, i play Warlords exclusively. One thing nobody has mentioned yet is that the timing of getting MC is somewhat dependent on how much military pressure you are under. Although I prefer to beeline to Liberalism, it is sometimes necessary to detour toward Maces and Crossbows for defense before making the final push toward Liberalism.

I have been reassured by the comments so far that I have not been delaying MC too long. I am thinking now that so long as I can get MC by the time I have something they will trade for it (e.g., Music), that is good enough.

 

[Casi]

d. Guilds. Okay knights suck; their counter comes before they exist and they are only strong if the AI lacks Fe. However, catas are insane and camel archers can be decent. With some strong luck out to around Emp you can pull off maybe one war of archers vs knights (or replacement), but with Justinian or Sal this can be a very solid beeline.

Are you serious?
Knights are among the best early Units, if you get attacked by a powerstack you need them to take the catas/trebs out, i seriously doubt your warmonging skills sorry

 

[goodolarchie]

Are you serious?
Knights are among the best early Units, if you get attacked by a powerstack you need them to take the catas/trebs out, i seriously doubt your warmonging skills sorry

Knights are pretty much pergatory between HA's and cuirs/cavs. Pikeman counter the hell out of them and they obsolete quickly.

 

[mirthadir]

Are you serious?
Knights are among the best early Units, if you get attacked by a powerstack you need them to take the catas/trebs out, i seriously doubt your warmonging skills sorry

Yeah, because for the quarter to a third of my games immort+ where I don't have horses, I'm just totally screwed if a "powerstack" attacks me then.

It is far more efficient sometimes to use your own pults to weaken the stock and then clobber it. Depending on the stack, particularly if it has Jumbos, it can be FAR more cost efficient to burn pults than to sacrifice even ever other knight.

On offense they just aren't powerful enough. Pikes are harsh counters and curis are so much more powerful. Castles really suck as well. Catas are good, and Camels can do a decent job ... but knights are just too much "meh".