Where does Russias sphere of influence end?

Winner

Diverse in Unity
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Many times on this forum I've been told:

"What's your problem Winner? Post-commie nations are now in the EU and NATO, which means Russia knows they're off limits. Russia realizes that this regions is lost." or "Russia wants to have a good relations with the EU."

Well, obviously it doesn't:

Where does Russia’s ‘sphere of influence’ end?
23.09.08 - Vessela Tcherneva

"In Russia, the optimists learn English; the pessimists learn Chinese and the realists learn to operate a Kalashnikov." This joke would have been funny had it not come from Dmitri Rogozin, Russia's ambassador to NATO, in a recent interview to a Bulgarian newspaper.

Weeks after Russia's war with Georgia and days after the announcement of a new ‘spheres of influence' policy by Russian President Dmitri Medvedev, Rogozin - a former leader of the nationalist party Rodina (Motherland) and a good friend of indicted Serbian war criminal Ratko Mladic - introduced Bulgarian readers to Russia's new foreign policy doctrine.

Rogozin's interview seemed to carry a clear message to the Bulgarian public: the country belongs to Russia's sphere of influence, and any other club membership - be it NATO or the EU - has been a historical mistake, which would later need to be corrected.

"Bulgaria has abandoned us many times but took the right decision afterwards, when victory has come on our side. Now Bulgaria is again in the wrong camp - NATO. But this is your own mistake and it is up to you to correct it some day."

Meanwhile, he warned, "Romanians, Bulgarians and all others around the Black Sea should be very careful about what they are doing and what they allow others to do in their waters."

He also made clear how this Kremlin agenda was to be implemented.

"There are two elements that will remain unchanged irrespective of what happens," the Russian envoy said. "The discipline in supplying energy to our partners and our readiness to use our missile systems. Both are up and running."

Rogozin's interview was permeated with military machismo even when he discussed the situation of non-Russian minorities: "Minorities are not only a Russian problem - there are Hungarians in Romania, and Turks in Bulgaria. [...] But I would like to clarify something - the reason we intervened in South Ossetia was not only because there were Russians living there. We would defend in the same way every small nation in our region that is threatened by destruction - Jews, Bulgarians, everybody."

Less than a week later, another official, Vladimir Chizhov, Russia's ambassador to the EU, told the Bulgarian National Radio that "some European Council on Foreign Relations" has stolen his term of billing countries as Russia's ‘Trojan horses' in the EU, and that Bulgaria should also be included in the group. (In its Power Audit of EU-Russia Relations, ECFR argued that Cyprus and Greece were already acting in that role for Russia.)

Like his colleague at NATO, Chizhov criticized Bulgaria's membership in the EU and NATO and expressed hope that Sofia would eventually return to the Russian bosom.

"I understand that with European Union membership, and especially with NATO membership, Bulgaria has taken a difficult burden, since these memberships are not always easy. You can go to bed one evening and in the morning you wake up as somebody's military base. But apart from their well-developed sense of humor, Bulgarians have always had enough common sense. And I think it makes perfect sense to continue developing our [bilateral] relationship."

Chizhov also stressed that he expected Bulgaria to block a possible EU decision for sanctions against Russia in the wake of the Georgia war.

The Bulgarian government and President Parvanov - whom Rogozin called a personal friend - did nothing to react to the above statements by Russia's ambassadors. Instead, Prime Minister Sergei Stanishev met Vladimir Putin in an attempt to highlight what he called "Bulgaria's balanced policy towards Russia."

These days, Bulgarian public opinion surveys show that 66% of Bulgarians consider themselves Russophile - the highest number in Europe - whilst 75% support the EU.

The Bulgarian government has yet to recognize that it cannot be halfway between Brussels and Moscow. Not only because the country has already joined the Western club, but because this time around Russia is unlikely to tolerate such behavior, seeing it not merely as diplomatic legerdemain by a small country, but betrayal by an age-old ally.

Yet, rather than realize how Moscow is trying re-draw Europe's map, pushing its ‘sphere of influence' well into the EU, Bulgarian and European leaders have stayed silent. Whether deliberate or not, their silence sends a clear signal to Moscow: that Russia can bully its neighbours freely, and position itself as an alternative power in the region.

However, it will hardly be in the interest of the European Union - which has been put on the defensive on many other fronts including its neighborhood policy and its common energy strategy, to allow Russia to penetrate the bloc's southern tier.

Vessela Tcherneva is a senior policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations (www.ecfr.eu).

So, where is the guarantee that we don't find ourselves where we began in 1990? Russians are clearly just waiting for an opportunity to penetrade the "EU perimeter" and restore their power in their former Cold War puppet states.

Bonus article (interesting opinion piece, read it):

A united Europe must stand up to Russia
28.02.08 - TIMOTHY GARTON ASH

This presidential election is such a cliffhanger. Will it be the rising star Dmitry "Obamovich" Medvedev? Or the veteran Gennady "McCainovich" Zyuganov? Aren't we on the edge of our seats, nervously checking the latest opinion polls ahead of Sunday's vote?

The Guardian, 28 February, 2008

Well, no. So little so, in fact, that even Hillary Clinton temporarily mislaid the name of the leading candidate in the other presidential election. Asked "Who will it be? Do you know his name?" in Tuesday's television debate with Barack Obama, she replied: "Er, Med, er, Medvedeva ... whatever ..." Imagine such an exchange 20 years ago, when there was still a Soviet Union: "Er, Gorb, er, Gorbacheva ... whatever ..."

One reason most North Americans and west Europeans are not excited about this is that we don't feel Russia matters as much as it used to, or that it really threatens us any more. Wrong, perhaps, but that's the feeling. Another is that the election result is known in advance. And the winner will be ... Dmitry Whatever. Putin's poodle from St Petersburg.

Vladimir Putin's Russia, you see, is not a democracy. It pretends to be. It calls itself a sovereign democracy. But the difference between a democracy and a sovereign democracy is like that between a jacket and a straitjacket. :lol: A liberal candidate for the presidency, Mikhail Kasyanov, has been disqualified from standing on what was almost certainly a fraudulent charge of technical irregularity. Dissenters such as the former world chess champion Garry Kasparov are roughed up and locked up. Most important media are directly or indirectly controlled by the Kremlin. Independent journalists go in fear of their lives.

A report just published by Amnesty International highlights the systematic curbing of Russian NGOs, as well as documenting many other restrictions on freedom of association, assembly and expression. The election monitors of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe described Russia's parliamentary election last December as neither free nor fair. They are not even monitoring this one, because the Russian authorities will not allow them to operate properly. This political system is not totalitarian, like the old Soviet Union, but it is a nasty form of authoritarianism dressed up as democracy: a wolf in sheep's clothing.

So what should we do about it? In recent years, the Russian wolf has run rings around the free countries of the world in general, and European ones in particular. Deploying gas pipelines, banks and embargoes instead of tanks and missiles, it has intimidated, or tried to intimidate, many of its neighbours. A Swedish researcher has identified 55 cases of energy cut-offs or threatened cut-offs between 1992 and 2006. While "technical" reasons were usually cited, most of the cut-offs just happened to occur when Moscow wished to obtain some political or economic advantage, such as influencing an election or letting state-controlled companies like Gazprom buy into energy infrastructure.

Meanwhile, the countries of the European Union have been at sixes and sevens in their relations with Moscow. It's a general rule that if you want to see the EU at its most divided, supine and implausible, you should look at it from the vantage point of a rich, large, powerful country, be it Russia, China or the United States. Policymakers in Beijing, Moscow and Washington share views of the EU ranging from the sceptical to the contemptuous, for they see each national government privately coming, cap in hand, to make its own deal. Small wonder that Putin's Russia feels it can pursue its own national interests better by dealing with individual European powers. Europe, as it currently behaves towards Russia, China and the US, is a standing invitation to "divide and rule".

The kow-towing is personal as well as national. The former German chancellor Gerhard Schröder, having smoothed the way for Russia's Nord Stream gas pipeline under the Baltic sea while in office, is now chairman of the pipeline consortium. In an interview less than 18 months ago, he was still publicly sticking by his claim that Putin is a "flawless democrat". Oh yes, and black is white.

A recent report by the European Council on Foreign Relations, a pan-European thinktank (full disclosure: on whose board I sit), documents this pathetic disarray. It also points out that if you treat the EU as a unit, it is potentially far more powerful than Russia. Its total economy is 15 times the size of Russia's, which barely outstrips that of Belgium and the Netherlands combined. About half Russia's trade is with the EU, while Russian gas supplies only 25% of current EU gas needs. As for "soft power" - the power to attract - Russia does not begin to compete. It's only because Europe is so divided that the tail wags the dog.

There is now a fairly widespread recognition in the capitals of Europe that the EU needs to "get its act together" about Russia, which means also about energy policy. But that is little use so long as Europe's leaders cannot agree which line they should unite around. The election - no, the coronation - of a new Russian president is a good moment to consider what that line should be: for Europe, and for others as well.

Calling in Tuesday's debate for "a more realistic and effective strategy towards Russia", Hillary Clinton reflected a widespread view when she said that "even though technically the meetings may be with the man who is labelled president, the decisions will be made by Putin". Since Putin will be prime minister, with an overwhelming majority in parliament, that is what most observers currently think; it seems to be what Putin himself thinks; and it's probably what Medvedev thinks, too. In the short term, they are probably right.

But in the longer term, I wouldn't be so sure. The constitution gives more power to the president, and there's something about being the top man in the Kremlin that gets to you in the end. For all its natural resources, Russia is not immune to other influences, including the country's slowly emerging middle class, the rise of China, and the policies of Europe and the US. And you never know, one day Putin might overdo the judo practice or fall under a tram.

In any case, I believe we should use this moment to signal the beginning of a new chapter in our relations with Russia. Both the EU and, next year, the new American president should engage active but robustly with President Medvedev and his team. He is a relatively young man and said to be slightly more of a free marketeer than Putin. He is on record as observing that "we are well aware that no non-democratic state has ever become truly prosperous" - an intriguing formulation.

In any case, we have no alternative but to engage with Russia on a whole range of foreign policy issues, from Kosovo to Iran, on which it has a veto at the United Nations and other spoiling powers. But we need to spell out much more clearly the terms of our engagement. These should, at a minimum, include more respect for the sovereignty of neighbouring states, and for human rights and the rule of law, both at home and abroad. That much needs to be said clearly, publicly and at once.

This article appeared in The Guardian on 28 February, 2008
 
These days, Bulgarian public opinion surveys show that 66% of Bulgarians consider themselves Russophile - the highest number in Europe - whilst 75% support the EU.
Heaven forbid that a nation that was created by Russia likes Russia.
 
But Russia is a total joke Winner - completely inept, powerless, afraid of the EU and completely dependent on European money... just laugh at them, you arent frightened are you?
 
If I were in Russia I'll learn English because I'm an optimist. Learning Chinese will close your doors to just a corner of the world. English will take you everywhere.
 
To RedRalph:

Either post something sensible, or don't bother posting pathetic off-topic comments in a vain effort to cover up your inability to read the article.
 
To RedRalph:

Either post something sensible, or don't bother posting pathetic off-topic comments in a vain effort to cover up your inability to read the article.


Yeah, typical Winne rrespinse when its pointed out hes nothing but xenophobic prejudice, hyperbole and attempting (unsucessfully) to whip up anti-russian hysteria. but of course thats just a misconception on the part of almost everyone on the baord, inst it, Winner?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
If I were in Russia I'll learn English because I'm an optimist. Learning Chinese will close your doors to just a corner of the world. English will take you everywhere.

Not everywhere, and China is a rather large corner of the world, a hell of a lot larger than australia or Ireland for that matter
 
Speaking of pathetic off-topic comments, I'm intrigued by the notion of a sphere of influence.

Not only does Russia control the sky, the underground is its puppet state, too! :run:
 
Yeah, typical Winne rrespinse when its pointed out hes nothing but xenophobic prejudice, hyperbole and attempting (unsucessfully) to whip up anti-russian hysteria. but of course thats just a misconception on the part of almost everyone on the baord, inst it, Winner?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I posted two articles, you respond with sarcastic bullcrap (probably) without even reading one of them, and now you accuse me - wait, not me but Timothy Gordon Ash and Vessela Tcherneva of xenophobia and whipping up anti-Russian hysteria :lol:

I hope your eyes fall out of your eye sockets :p

Now, if you have nothing to say to the articles, please leave and go troll in another thread.
 
1. Vladimir Putin's Russia, you see, is not a democracy:
True, Russia is not an established democracy as France, the UK or USA. But it is not a disctatorship either. Even with a more "democratic atmosphere" and a freer press etc, it seems that ruassian would still vote for Medvedev/Putin. But it is a common strategy for people tocall undemocratic the democratic regime they don't like (look to Chavez and Morales for instance, or even Bush 1st election).

2. A Swedish researcher has identified 55 cases of energy cut-offs or threatened cut-offs between 1992 and 2006. While "technical" reasons were usually cited, most of the cut-offs just happened to occur when Moscow wished to obtain some political or economic advantage, such as influencing an election or letting state-controlled companies like Gazprom buy into energy infrastructure.

So what? Russia is using its gas as an "economic" weapon, every one is doing the same with strategic ressources: France will never sell Mirages to unfriendly regimes and you better kiss the US ass if you want to have their latest technological weapons or every resource they consider strategic.
 
Oh god not more of this anti Russian stuff Winner. Of course they're going to try and exert influence on their neighbours. Just like every other country in the world. Just like people in Russia might be asking where the EU's sphere of influence ends. Trying to expand influence is a natural thing for any government to do.

This doesn't mean that we should all be scared ****less of Russia, which is exactly what you want people to be.

Oh and let me guess, you're proposal to stop Russia dividing and conquering europe is for all the national governments to cede even more power to the EU?
 
Where NATO says it does. But more seriously, where Russia's neighbors say it does, so in other words at the Russian border.
 
Oh god not more of this anti Russian stuff Winner.

Again, are you accusing the authors of the articles of being anti-Russian? I am already used to being falsely accused every time my opponents don't know what to say, but this is entirely new level of craziness...

Of course they're going to try and exert influence on their neighbours. Just like every other country in the world. Just like people in Russia might be asking where the EU's sphere of influence ends. Trying to expand influence is a natural thing for any government to do.

This doesn't mean that we should all be scared ****less of Russia, which is exactly what you want people to be.

No, it's the Russians who want that, otherwise they'd not say such things.

They are saying that their goal is to reverse the situation, get countries out of the EU and out of NATO. If you don't find that at least strange and suspicious, you're a hopeless case.

Oh and let me guess, you're proposal to stop Russia dividing and conquering europe is for all the national governments to cede even more power to the EU?

It's not only my proposal. As Ash explained, divided Europe is an easy target for Russia. More coordinated policy is necessary.

Why? Because the Russian ambassador made it clear they want to use their "Trojan Horses" in the EU to manipulate it. These are THEIR WORDS.


It's unbelievable how ignorant and how much in denial certain people on this forum are. I wonder what would the Russians have to do in order to finally convince the denialists that they're trying to undermine Europe. I guess useful idiots will suport them no matter what.
 
Again, are you accusing the authors of the articles of being anti-Russian? I am already used to being falsely accused every time my opponents don't know what to say, but this is entirely new level of craziness...

I'm accusing you of being anti-Russian because you seem to mostly post on matters which would suggest the Russians are coming to get us.

No, it's the Russians who want that, otherwise they'd not say such things.

They are saying that their goal is to reverse the situation, get countries out of the EU and out of NATO. If you don't find that at least strange and suspicious, you're a hopeless case.

I don't find it strange at all, the EU and NATO are not in the interest of the Russian government. So it's natural for them to try and counter the influence of these organisations in the countries that they desire their own influence to be dominant. I'm not saying that the EU and NATO are not the lesser of the two evils for a country in the region to choose, I'm just saying that it's natural for Russia to want to usurp the EU and NATO as the most dominant player in the region.



It's not only my proposal. As Ash explained, divided Europe is an easy target for Russia. More coordinated policy is necessary.

Why? Because the Russian ambassador made it clear they want to use their "Trojan Horses" in the EU to manipulate it. These are THEIR WORDS.

Yes a more coordinated policy is necessary. I'm aware of the "trojan horse" tactics that the Russians can use when dealing with EU member states but there is no easy fix. It will take time to build up a culture of foreign policy coordination in the EU. All this scaremongering and blowing out of proportion of Russian influence only serves to hasten the arrival of greater EU power over member nations' foreign policy - all in the name of fighting a threat that isn't particularily threatening at all.


It's unbelievable how ignorant and how much in denial certain people on this forum are. I wonder what would the Russians have to do in order to finally convince the denialists that they're trying to undermine Europe. I guess useful idiots will suport them no matter what.

Yeah they're trying to undermine Europe - but that doesn't mean that we have to undermine the process of integration in the pursuit of some quick fix to fight Russian influence that isn't a particularily pressing problem.
 
Considering how its influence is invariably negative, ideally it would end at its border. Sadly, it seems to end at the Atlantic and Pacific ocean.
 
Yeah, typical Winne rrespinse when its pointed out hes nothing but xenophobic prejudice, hyperbole and attempting (unsucessfully) to whip up anti-russian hysteria. but of course thats just a misconception on the part of almost everyone on the baord, inst it, Winner?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It is because you live in the distant country of Ireland and have lived all your life in a non-commie land. For us, unlike you, Russia is a threat.

You can go off in lalaland and forget russia even exists, but that isn't possible in former warsaw pact countries, as they're still be a threat. Countries like Ukraine, have to be cautious.
 
It is because you live in the distant country of Ireland and have lived all your life in a non-commie land. For us, unlike you, Russia is a threat.

You can go off in lalaland and forget russia even exists, but that isn't possible in former warsaw pact countries, as they're still be a threat. Countries like Ukraine, have to be cautious.

Actually wouldn't the fact that the opinion is coming from a country that didn't suffer a communist regime make the opinions a bit more neutral and balanced?

Of course countries have to be careful when dealing with Russia, but it still doesn't mean that we have to overestimate the threat they pose.
 
It ends where the iron curtain used to be.
 
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