Imagine you're a negotiator between the Ukraine and Russia... how would you solve this problem?

[Remorseless1]

Then America and Europe need to tell the Ukrainian government to put their big boy pants on and start acting like a modern European nation and not some Balkan embarrassment.
The national and regional government engaging in these language shenanigans and playing footsy with nazis militias, speaking personally, did a big disservice to how they were viewed internationally before 2022.

The extranational murders of dissidents, poisoning political opponents, others mysteriously "falling" out of windows, brutal military actions in Chechnya and Georgia, support for Syria in its civil war, etc. did a big disservice to how Russia was and is still viewed.

 

[red_elk]

A prerequisite of negotiations must be the end of that criminal regime and free elections in Russia.

That's a non-starter and you know it.
Refusing to negotiate may be a viable strategy, but only as long as your side is not currently losing.

 

[Lexicus]

That's a non-starter and you know it.

Of course it is, but I think at this point most of the Russian asks are also non-starters. Which is why I believe the war is likely to continue for quite a long time.

Refusing to negotiate may be a viable strategy, but only as long as your side is not currently losing.

I haven't seen any evidence that Russia is particularly interested in negotiation. In fact, I think that Russia's goal is to destroy the Ukrainian state, not dictate terms to it.

 

[Lexicus]

Exactly. This is more similar to negotiating with bank robbers who are holding hostages inside the bank.

The problem is that regardless of the true situation any other party has really no choice but to regard negotiation on the Russian side as being a front to buy time to rearm and have another try at war.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That's a non-starter and you know it.

So is "Possibility for Russia to cede back some territories it currently controls"
Not: cede all territories they invaded, just the possibility of ceding some.

Which is simply: If we get your land we'll stop killing your citizens.

 

[red_elk]

I haven't seen any evidence that Russia is particularly interested in negotiation.

The status quo is more acceptable to Russia than to Ukraine. I wouldn't expect any side to ask for negotiations openly, as it may be interpreted as weakness. Behind the curtains, probably.

In fact, I think that Russia's goal is to destroy the Ukrainian state, not dictate terms to it.

That's not only unfeasible, but also unrealistic.

 

[Ajidica]

They could just as well start with telling Russia to stop like a corrupt autocratic petro-state armed with nuclear weapons first...

It's not like any of these features of current Russia are inevitable, or does Russia like of good.

Why is Ukraine the one that needs to be talked to like a toddler in your opinion?

Well, the Russian government is, well, we all know what it is.
Ukraine is trying to join the liberal democracy club; and if their government wants to ban or restrict the second most widely spoken language in Ukraine as part of ethnonationalist power games then that has implications for what sort of support Ukraine should receive. America already provides government and most essential documents in multiple language free of charge. Canada is officially multilingual, same with Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland. Official state recognition of minority or widely spoken languages in a country is hardly unusual. If the Russian government in peace talks wants guarantees on the status of the Russian language in Ukraine; just give it.

The extranational murders of dissidents, poisoning political opponents, others mysteriously "falling" out of windows, brutal military actions in Chechnya and Georgia, support for Syria in its civil war, etc. did a big disservice to how Russia was and is still viewed.

You will notice I have not spoken positively of the Russian government anywhere.

 

[Theov]

I think the premise of the thread is fundamentally flawed in that I tend to think no real negotiations are possible with a criminal regime like Putin's. A prerequisite of negotiations must be the end of that criminal regime and free elections in Russia.

There's no need to discuss if negotiations are possible - I'm interested in the hypothetical situation where you are the negotiator (which is also unlikely).

I agree that with a stalemate in the war, Russia is actually going for a war of attrition that they can hold longer than the Ukraine - for which Ukraine needs outside support.
Which makes it a very possibility that some people are benefiting from a prolonged war.
Both in Ukraine and outside of it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ukraine is trying to join the liberal democracy club; and if their government wants to ban or restrict the second most widely spoken language in Ukraine as part of ethnonationalist power games then that has implications for what sort of support Ukraine should receive. America already provides government and most essential documents in multiple language free of charge. Canada is officially multilingual, same with Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland. Official state recognition of minority or widely spoken languages in a country is hardly unusual. If the Russian government in peace talks wants guarantees on the status of the Russian language in Ukraine; just give it.

That's reasonable. If only Russia cared one bit about the status of Russian language in Ukraine.

But, the "west" *ahem* should care. So even if Russia gets driven back to it's border this could be used as a precondition on joining EU or NATO.

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

There's no need to discuss if negotiations are possible - I'm interested in the hypothetical situation where you are the negotiator (which is also unlikely).

assuming both sides would be willing to negotiate, which is why I have difficulty with this hypothetical...

as barely anything more than a casual outside observer, it seems to me that Russia views Ukraine as a primarily internal conflict for which they have some vague claim to, whereas Ukrainians see themselves in a war of survival.

if that's the case, maybe east Ukraine can be made into some international zone policed by the UN and we can just kick this can down the road until Putin dies...
I mean that'd almost be as good a solution as any, ridiculous though it may be

 

[Birdjaguar]

Hmmm....How about the Ukraine cede some land for Putin making a trip to the Hague for trial as a starting point?

 

[Akka]

How about to put the demilitarized zone in Russia around Ukraine's borders, considering it's Russia which has attacked for years ?
Why are all the suggestions based on Ukraine making concessions while it's the victim ?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Why are all the suggestions based on Ukraine making concessions while it's the victim ?

Indeed. Ukraine making concessions and Russia makes none.

I naively thought freedom was about asking people what they actually want, and accepting their decision, instead of marching an army across it's border when that decision isn't what you want.

 

[Lexicus]

There's no need to discuss if negotiations are possible - I'm interested in the hypothetical situation where you are the negotiator (which is also unlikely).

I agree that with a stalemate in the war, Russia is actually going for a war of attrition that they can hold longer than the Ukraine - for which Ukraine needs outside support.
Which makes it a very possibility that some people are benefiting from a prolonged war.
Both in Ukraine and outside of it.

I think by "negotiator" here you mean "mediator" or "arbiter."

If I'm mediating between the two sides my proposal is that Russia immediately evacuate Ukrainian territory and demilitarize its side of the Ukrainian border as a prerequisite for negotiations.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think the premise of the thread is fundamentally flawed in that I tend to think no real negotiations are possible with a criminal regime like Putin's. A prerequisite of negotiations must be the end of that criminal regime and free elections in Russia.

Atm yes but if Putins regime doesn't collapse eventually something will be stitched together.

No one's at that point and atm the battlefield will determine who gets what.

 

[Theov]

I think by "negotiator" here you mean "mediator" or "arbiter."

If I'm mediating between the two sides my proposal is that Russia immediately evacuate Ukrainian territory and demilitarize its side of the Ukrainian border as a prerequisite for negotiations.

Ah yes, now that we use the word 'mediator' instead of 'negotiator', we can have a much better discussion on this topic.
Thanks!

 

[Kyriakos]

Organize internationally monitored referendums in Crimea and east Donbass (if there is any ukrainian majority bordering region in Russia, have a referendum there too).
Preferably before more arms deals are made- unless you are a fan of the military-industrial complex.

Such plans, of course, have a time-stamp. If either side collapses, you can forget nice solutions. Problem is that apparently those are denied even before that.

 

[Snowygerry]

Big fan yes, the economy is swinging like a tit. Every (foreign) war is profitable.

Not good enough to start one, of course, but if they want one we can certainly outlast them, laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Kyriakos]

Big fan yes, the econmy is swinging like a tit. Every (foreign) war is profitable.

Not good enough to start one, of course, but if they want one we can certainly outlast them.

War enthusiasm, so war, so good ^^
I suppose you were joking (then again...)

 

[Snowygerry]

Cynical joke yes.

Moscow summons Belgium’s envoy to protest use of Belgian weapons

Moscow summons Belgium’s envoy to protest use of Belgian weapons

www.anews.com.tr

A bit rich for a nation that armed the entire world with AKs innit ? They are lucky I'm not a "mediator"