Where'd the 3.13 change list thread go?

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IMO that would definately have been better than creating false expectations and not following up with anything of any use.

Can't you guys let sleeping dogs lie?

I am just so over your indignation that someone volunteered information and then didn't respond to the constant request for more!

I would agree with NYC that the handling of the patching process for BTS has hardly been transparent. But surely thats par for the course. (Not an excuse, just an observation)

I'm waiting for the patch, so are you all. But gnashing of teeth, threats, and proclamations of betrayal aren't going to make it appear any quicker!

This is my last word on this. I'm off to threads where the noise to signal ratio is not so great!
 
As far as I'm concerned, Firaxis does a fine job. Firaxis spoils us, and goes beyond the industry norm to do so. Every company publishes PC games buggy. Not every company actually patches them.....
 
I'm not saying that can't get misinterpreted - of course it can. The reality is that a lot of the people on the forum now weren't around with Alex was "just a member" here. So for them, he can't seem like "just a member" now, he appears to be "Firaxis". I think that's what Alex has now realized, and that's why we won't see him making such posts in the future.

Right you are, I guess. For me and other new people he's just the nice Firaxis guy that takes time to post on this forum. But that doesn't mean he can't make posts such as those we are discussing, just that he must bear in mind his position, and adopt a more flexible posture in regards to words like "done" and time estimates. It's not for nothing that it's near-impossible to get anything more precise than "soon" ouf of most representatives, since stuff tend to happen, which causes delays, which causes huge storms in small glasses if it conflicts with anything even remotely solid given earlier.
 
Can't you guys let sleeping dogs lie?

I am just so over your indignation that someone volunteered information and then didn't respond to the constant request for more!

I would agree with NYC that the handling of the patching process for BTS has hardly been transparent. But surely thats par for the course. (Not an excuse, just an observation)

I'm waiting for the patch, so are you all. But gnashing of teeth, threats, and proclamations of betrayal aren't going to make it appear any quicker!

This is my last word on this. I'm off to threads where the noise to signal ratio is not so great!

I reply to something and I get told to shut up! Whatever, everyone just seems to hate me tonight for no reason.

As far as I'm concerned, Firaxis does a fine job. Firaxis spoils us, and goes beyond the industry norm to do so. Every company publishes PC games buggy. Not every company actually patches them.....

Not every company has a forum dedicated to a game with over 100,000 members either.
 
What forum are you talking about? Firaxis doesn't have a Civ forum...
And CivFanatics is definitely not Firaxis controlled (neither Apoly or any other FAN site).
 
My point is only how people came across in that thread. I doubt Alexman read through all the threads to get a detailed view of each person's position.

I don't want to drag this unpleasantness out any longer, but I'll try and leave this last thought. In life, we often have to deal with people who act in a foolish or annoying ways but who (sometimes unjustifiably) have power over us. The way to deal with them is not to shout and scream, but to show respect to them and try to bring them along with you.

Fair enough. And I'll leave you with this thought: When chastising others for what they've said before, it's best to treat them with respect by accurately portraying all their statements before you do so. To paraphrase Dryden (Claude Rains) in "Lawrence of Arabia:" "A man who tells lies merely hides the truth, whereas a man who tells half lies, has forgotten where he put it."
 
Curious question: Could someone tell what's the merit of still pointing out how bad one sees the actions of Alexman, Firaxis, Take2, etc.? That's not a rhetorical question - I really, honestly wonder. I don't understand what positive effect could possibly be achieved with this discussion. I've tried to think about possible reasons why people might want to continue it, but they all seem to make no sense. Here's the list I could come up with:

- "We want to change the way Firaxis/Take2 treat the fans".
Well, you won't, due to several reasons:
a ) A company won't change it's way due to a vocal group of perhaps two dozen people on a public forum, which is being opposed by an equally large group of people who thinks different.
b ) Even the group of critics is not at all in agreement about what the preferred treatment by Firaxis would be. Some demand more information. Some say they would have preferred no information at all. So even *if* Firaxis/Take2 decided to change their ways to fulfill the wishes of one group in a currently divided forum, they wouldn't even know what to do, because the wishes of the critics are contradictory.
c ) Flame wars are a legendarily ineffective method of convincing anybody of anything. If you want to change the way Firaxis/Take2 treat you, then it would be much more effective to work together with those people at Firaxis/Take2 who do care for you, strengthen their position, and make them advocate your cause within Firaxis/Take2.

- "We don't want to be made responsible for the fact that CFC now gets less inside information, our actions were justified"
This too doesn't make a good reason to continue the debate. Which actions were justified and which weren't is obviously disputed. No matter how far you take this discussion, you won't change the fact that several people *will* blame you for the expected future lack of inside information. You will not be able to change that, no matter how long you keep arguing. You'll just have to stand this criticism to your behavior, as well as Alexman had to stand yours.

- "The other camp won't give in"
Well, so doesn't yours, so if we take this as a good reason to continue the debate, it will go on forever. Even *if* other people continue to beat dead horses, then that's still a bad justification for joining them and beating the same carcass from the other side.

- "I am still angry at (whomever) and want to make this known"
Well, one might expect that whoever has an interest in this debate, knows by now who's angry and why. So the informational value of posts that repeat the same arguments over and over is very slim indeed. If you want to get the anger out of your system, there are probably less destructive methods available.

That's the reasons I could come up with why people might want to continue this debate. As can be seen, none of them work well. So have I missed something? IS there a good reason to continue this debate? IS there a possible, achievable positive outcome towards which we could work? If yes, please tell me.

The only thing that's worthy of a debate in *my* opinion is, how can we change our behavior at CFC so that Firaxians will *want* to come to us and share their information with us. That's something we *can* do, it's in our hands. Everything else isn't. But as long as the debate keeps focusing on statements like "Our actions were justified", or "Alexman has acted poorly", or "The others are at fault", nothing positive will ever emerge from it - that#s for certain.
 
The only thing that's worthy of a debate in *my* opinion is, how can we change our behavior at CFC so that Firaxians will *want* to come to us and share their information with us.

Some people's "righteous indignation" will get in the way of this well-reasoned position. They'll stand on their soapboxes and declare that they are "right" and Firaxis is "wrong."


...and the end result? The flow of information is shut down.
 
Some people's "righteous indignation" will get in the way of this well-reasoned position. They'll stand on their soapboxes and declare that they are "right" and Firaxis is "wrong."


...and the end result? The flow of information is shut down.

Flow? More like a trickle...
 
We are fanatics, that means we're gonna get excited and emotional about the game. I wish someone cared enough about my company's product to check every day for patches and improvements.

Firaxis are not little kids, they know that they will be considered evil until they release the patch and then afterward they are the greatest. It's a simple fact of life. I bet Firaxis wishes that people were this jazzed up about Railroads! and Pirates.
 
Some people's "righteous indignation" will get in the way of this well-reasoned position. They'll stand on their soapboxes and declare that they are "right" and Firaxis is "wrong."


...and the end result? The flow of information is shut down.

I think it's not a moral, but a business question. There's a lot to be said for catching more flies with homey than vinegar. But, I know when I'm trying to get customers to buy my product, the day I start blaming them for their behavior and punishing them by turning off the supply of information is the day I've started into a self-defeating death spiral.
 
OK. Trickle then. I'll revise my statement to say that some people would rather shut the trickle down completely and be somehow "right" in their own eyes. Odd, that

Or just give us the changelog when they're done with the patch? That way no one gets annoyed with Firaxis giving a rather pathetic (IMO) amount of info which causes problems for all.
 
I've been away a while and there's no way I'm reading through 8 pages of this to figure out what happened. Can anyone recap?

Is the patch coming?
Did someone torque off alexman?
 
I've been away a while and there's no way I'm reading through 8 pages of this to figure out what happened. Can anyone recap?

Is the patch coming?
Did someone torque off alexman?

Yes, and don't know, appears that way but I would not want to speak for alexman. I certainly hope not.

To recap:

Firaxis and/or Take2 are evil in some people's eyes (not mine) because they didn't release the patch yet. They have a partnership with each other that keeps their lawyers in business figuring out how it works. Yet, people here still are speculating in order to figure out who to blame.

As for the patch being released today still, don't know. We'll know by the end of the day though.

Don't get me wrong -- I am not entirely happy that the most recent version of BtS is worse than the original release, by their own admission. I just don't know who to blame, so I don't... I simply want results, I am not going to play the blame game. I am waiting for a release, would much prefer sooner rather than later, even if it doesn't fix everything and would require yet another patch down the road. At least fix 3.03 in the very near-term.

Sam
 
There's a lot to be said for catching more flies with homey than vinegar. But, I know when I'm trying to get customers to buy my product, the day I start blaming them for their behavior and punishing them by turning off the supply of information is the day I've started into a self-defeating death spiral.

There's a lot to be said for catching more flies with honey than vinegar. But, I know when I'm trying to get game developers to supply my community with information, the day I start blaming them for their behavior and punishing them by turning their own words and good will against them is the day I've started into a self-defeating death spiral.

See the irony?

Respectful behavior is a mutual thing.

And btw, I still think that finding ways how we could make Firaxians *want* to come here would be a far more productive discussion than this endless debate about who started the mess that we're in now (this question won't ever be solved anyway).
 
Yes, and don't know, appears that way but I would not want to speak for alexman. I certainly hope not.

To recap:

Firaxis and/or Take2 are evil in some people's eyes (not mine) because they didn't release the patch yet. They have a partnership with each other that keeps their lawyers in business figuring out how it works. Yet, people here still are speculating in order to figure out who to blame.

As for the patch being released today still, don't know. We'll know by the end of the day though.

Don't get me wrong -- I am not entirely happy that the most recent version of BtS is worse than the original release, by their own admission. I just don't know who to blame, so I don't... I simply want results, I am not going to play the blame game. I am waiting for a release, would much prefer sooner rather than later, even if it doesn't fix everything and would require yet another patch down the road. At least fix 3.03 in the very near-term.

Sam

Thanks for the info. :(

It's sad that this forum is standing on the brink of devolving into a real cesspool of whining and complaining. If I were a new player that came to this forum just to see what's up, I would get the impression that Civ IV and it's expansions are the worst games ever made. It's no wonder that most companies refuse to respond to forum posters asking for information about their games without the help of a multi-million dollar PR machine.

Bravo, guys! You've done it to yourselves!

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I thought the patch was coming on Monday or Tuesday. It's Tuesday and still nothing. I'm disappointed but not surprised. :(
 
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