Which Culture is Superior ? Middle Eastern or Western?

[Provolution]

Well, before in this thread I mentioned politics, civil liberties, technology, patents, literacy ratio and several other factors. Right here I mentioned politics.
The point remains, the Middle East is an unworthy challenger that cannot win against the West, and its only way to leave somewhat gracefully is to deny a comparison altogether.

 

[GenMarshall]

I beleve that both Middle Eastern and Western cultures are equaly superior .

 

[Provolution]

The Question is MIDDLE Eastern, not EASTERN

 

[Yom]

Well, before in this thread I mentioned politics, civil liberties, technology, patents, literacy ratio and several other factors. Right here I mentioned politics.
The point remains, the Middle East is an unworthy challenger that cannot win against the West, and its only way to leave somewhat gracefully is to deny a comparison altogether.

Where do you get these notions of a "challenging" and "defending" culture. There's no culture war; each culture is just attempting to stay alive and spread if possible. There is neither an organized attempt to subvert western culture, nor is there an organized attempt to subvert middle eastern culture. Furthermore, literacy rates (not ratios), technology, patents, civil liberties, and politics aren't culture per se. Literacy rates, technology and patents all come as a result of an industrial, and not cultural, revolution. Civil liberties are outside of the realm of culture as I said earlier (falling into the realm of objective goods). I'm not sure what you're trying to say by the blanket term "politics."

 

[GenMarshall]

The Question is MIDDLE Eastern, not EASTERN

No need to get down my throught about it . I've edtied the post after I realised the mistake.

I still hold that both middle eastern and western are both equal. Though I only count the industrialized middle eastern countires.

 

[Perfection]

Well, before in this thread I mentioned politics, civil liberties, technology, patents, literacy ratio and several other factors. Right here I mentioned politics.

That's a mere thimble of the culture! Mannerisms, lifestyle, art, food, how the people interact, history, love among each other, familial bonds, friendships. You have no idea hoow deep culture is, and judge based on very limited criteria!

The point remains, the Middle East is an unworthy challenger that cannot win against the West, and its only way to leave somewhat gracefully is to deny a comparison altogether.

It's not like you've even begun to make the comparison!

 

[HighlandWarrior]

That implies that someone did try to sell him their daughter. Did that actually happen?

yes, in turkey and morroco, he served there in the navy.

 

[Dann]

Oh come on Ram, Chinese civilization has been serenely certain of its superiority for like 6000 years now.

err... I mean... Shhh...

@Ram & aneeshm: Ohh ok, so I was dreaming when I read that since day one, the Chinese have thought of non Chinese from beyond their borders as uncouth, smelly barbarians?

It is true thay thought of them as smelly barbarians , but they did not feel the need to assert themselves over the barbarians , did they ? This is all IIRC , so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong .

Also , what you are referring to is the view of the Chinese orthodox court . Dann can tell us if that is also the view shared by the people .

Up until they get the stuffing beat out of them in the mid-19th century, the Chinese (both rulers and people) thought they were the center of the world - a self-contained and self-sufficient civilization surrounded by barbarians or "lesser nations".

During times of power it expands, naturally. But the Chinese way of empire-building is even more complete than the Western colony method. Entire nations and cultures disappear, assimilated into the Chinese race. (which is itself modified slightly, having now absorbed new elements.)

Sometimes the barbarians win, and take over parts of China (north-south dynasties, Song-Liao-Jin) or even the whole thing (Mongols, Qing). But always, the invaders end up being Sinicized and becoming Chinese themselves.

Until the rise of the West, Chinese culture was just so powerful a force all East Asia, North Asia as well as parts of Central and Southeast Asia felt its influence. It's only rival was Indian culture, which had tremendous influence in Southeast Asia as well. (I'm sure Indian culture expanded elsewhere outside their subcontinent too, but I lack the detailed information. )

Given these, is it any wonder the ancient Chinese developed an exagerrated sense of cultural superiority?

The successive Chinese empires refused to treat foreign states as equals (unless forced at the point of a sword or gun). That isn't asserting superiority?

That is no longer just asserting superiority, it's arrogance and stupidity combined!

The Chinese were at par with the Greeks and the Romans during their time. They were, along with Islam, leaving Western Christendom in the dust during the Middle Ages. So what went wrong? They grew complacent! They rested on their laurels, and saw no more need for innovation. They became inward-looking, xenophobic and pedantic. Does any of this strangely sound familiar today?

We Chinese have learned our bitter lesson. Nothing cultural/intellectual/technological is superior or inferior, only useful to us or not. The mullahs seem to be learning the wrong lessons. (Islam was, in the shape of the Ottomans, still capable of being a major threat to Europe after the Renaissance! Obviously something went grieviously wrong for them.) The West should take care to not fall into the same trap as the Qing.

 

[Provolution]

We will never get complacent, we will root out their ignorance for all posterity with all means at our disposal and close our borders to their theological teachings.

 

[Rambuchan]

We will never get complacent, we will root out their ignorance for all posterity with all means at our disposal and close our borders to their theological teachings.

So you're going to ban books, freedom of speech and the Arab world's access to the internet? You clearly don't think before you roll out your statements.

 

[Provolution]

Haha, the Arab World can post as much of their material online, and see how many hits it will get, see how much their websites or broadcasts will convert... LOL
That is hilarious. Everyone knows that Islamism thrives on poverty, fear and political control of electronic media, Afghanistan is an example of that. Wahabism and Sufism would collapse in the absence of cencorship and paternalistic theological control.

 

[Provolution]

With Closed borders I mean the following:

An end to forced marriages or bringing in foreign spouses through arranged marriages
An end to the political privileges of Islamist Priests
An oath to the Constitution of the Western Country, legally binding
A shariah clause, outlawing the imposition or introduction of the laws for a lifetime
Background checks outlawing the immigration of certain Islamist political activists (they can go to Sudan or Iran, and be funded and "protected" there, we can even pay these countries to receive them)

The list goes on. The Mission is to snuff out political islam as a globally expansive movement and contain that movement to the Middle East.

 

[anarres]

<rant>...Yet, it is disturbing to see that NONE of the arab nations are democracies...</rant>

Unless of course you count Lebanon - that democratic Middle Eastern country.

 

[anarres]

Wahabism and Sufism would collapse in the absence of cencorship and paternalistic theological control.

Intresting your tirade is now about Wahabism. This is, IMO, a very restrictive place and one that I would very much like to change (although not in the same way as you )

It is important to remember however, that it was the west (UK) who supported the House of Saud in setting up modern day Saudi Arabia. We chose Wahabism as the religion of choice for the region - it seems somewhat ignorant to use this as an example of the greatness of Western culture compared to Middle Eastern culture.

As for your attack on Sufism, I am stumped. Can you tell us more how this very broad religion would collapse without "cencorship and paternalistic theological control"???

Many Sufi practitioners are organized into a very diverse range of brotherhoods and sisterhoods. Although many orders ("tariqas") can be classified as Shi'a or Sunni or even both, there are a few that are clearly neither Shiah nor Sunni and so constitute a separate sphere of Islamic faith.

Sufis believe that their teachings are the essence of every religion, and indeed of the evolution of humanity as a whole. The central concept in Sufism is "love". Dervishes -- the name given to initiates of sufi orders -- believe that love is a projection of the essence of God to the universe. They believe that God desires to recognize beauty, and as if one looks at a mirror to see oneself, God "looks" at itself within the dynamics of nature. Since they believe that everything is a reflection of God, the school of Sufism practices to see the beauty inside the apparently ugly, and to open arms to what they believe as even the most evil one. This religious tolerance is expressed in Sufism via these lines which are often attributed to the famous Sufi philosopher and poet Mevlana Rumi (but which were penned before his time, according to some scholars): "Come, come, whoever you are. Worshiper, Wanderer, Lover of Leaving; ours is not a caravan of despair. Though you have broken your vows a thousand times...Come, come again, Come." (In many Unitarian Universalist youth groups this poem is sung with minor alterations)

Sufis teach in personal groups, believing that the intervention of the master is necessary for the growth of the pupil. They make extensive use of parables and metaphors, in such a way that the meaning is only reachable through a process of seeking for the utmost truth and knowledge of oneself.

Although philosophies vary between different Sufi sects, Sufism as a whole is primarily concerned with direct personal experience, and as such is often compared to Zen Buddhism and Gnosticism. The following metaphor, credited to an unknown Sufi scholar, helps describe this line of thought. "There are three ways of knowing a thing. Take for instance a flame. One can be told of the flame, one can see the flame with his own eyes, and finally one can reach out and be burned by it. In this way, we Sufis seek to be burned by God."

A large part of Muslim literature comes from the Sufis, who created great books of poetry (which include for example the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, the Conference of the Birds and the Masnavi), all of which contain the profound, and hardly graspable, teachings of the Sufis.

Offshoots of Sufism in Africa include, for example, the Muslim brotherhoods of Senegal. The Sidis of Gujarat migrated from East Africa to India in the twelfth century.

 

[Rambuchan]

Yes, Sufism is very much akin to Buddhism in its broad, mystical, spiritual, world view. It is by for the most moderate element of Islam (more liberal than any Christian denominations I can think of) and is hugely inspiring to read.

 

[wit>trope]

Even if you say that it is difficult or nearly impossible to say which culture is superior, that wouldn't mean that one isn't superior to the other ... only that it's difficult for man to determine it one way or the other. Also in some cases it seems clear which culture is superior. Surely everyone would see for example that Western culture is superior in its cultural achievments (Shakespeare, Mozart, Beethoven, Plato, Einstein, etc.) to say the culture of some primitive tribe of Bushmen in Africa who may not even have any literature to speak of and may not even have the mathematics to even do the things that Einstein did, etc.

 

[Rambuchan]

Cierdan, you obviously haven't gone and done ANY extra reading up on this at all. And if you have, you've simply trawled back through all the Eurocentric, whitewashed versions of history to doubley delude yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I've said this before and I say it again, I like your spirit of debate but get with some factual basis dude.

EDIT: There are many cultures around the world who never adopted literature and yet achieved great things. Why not look up 'Oral History' in Wikioracle.

 

[Inter4]

I voted Middle Eastern culture, just to make sure I was against everyone's opinion

 

[plarq]

Oh,it's you.
@Provolution,you know that the one who vote for ME is just joking.

 

[The Last Conformist]

The point remains, the Middle East is an unworthy challenger that cannot win against the West, and its only way to leave somewhat gracefully is to deny a comparison altogether.

You're still not explaining WTH you mean by "challenger" here.