Which is the “best” Civ (1-6) and why?

Which one?


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Gonna be honest, don't really get that opinion. I could read a map from memory and didn't need any visualization in 4.

I think unpacking hurt 6. The military district, Jesus Christ. Even as an experienced ravager of lands and destroyer of cities they were tedious to deal with.

Sometimes I didn't bother. Just loot the campus and your opponents city is non-competitive. Depending on game speed, looting the campus may be more valuable than actually capturing the city for the rest of the game.

I'm gonna bet the builders just like pretty maps, because sprawling everything out really shouldn't be in any way impactful to the skilled utilitarian player as far as ability to actually effect good play. Peaceful ******* builders, man.
 
I am a fan of the old city screen, where you could see the buildings in a pre-rendered image. Too bad that the geniuses who made CivIII disabled this if you were using any mod - instead of allowing modded images to replace the old ones.
Filling the entire map with buildings just looks terrible - the scale of representation clearly isn't compatible with this. Imagine playing on a map of Europe and having London use up all of the island.
 
I am a fan of the old city screen
My mentioning that was what elicited the post I just linked.

Hell, I'd play a game that had Sim-City levels of city detail/planning and Civ IV levels of empire-expansiveness. But they'd have to be on separate screens.

The next thing it feels like Civ VII will add is Railroad Tycoon level of visual detail for individual buildings within the city map. That's gotta be the next evolution in making the maps more hideous looking.
 
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I think it might be a Boomer/Millennial-Z difference.
Sounds to me like overzealous pursuit of interface purity. "Let's have an iPhone moment for Civ!"
In my humble experience, the people who dislike innovation in interfaces are overwhelmingly the older generations. This applies to the web as much as it does video games.

Anecdotes are gonna anecdote. A lot of it is preference, rooted in nostalgia for what each of us were used to when video games were new to us.
 
Which means Firaxis can work on AI more in future iterations, not nerf the very possibility of realising geographical, tactical warfare by making a step back within a constantly progressing abstraction known as Civilization series.

Stack combat in civ 3 and 4 realized the possibility of geographical, tactical warfare. It was just a little more complicated than the simple optimization problem that is the "tactical" combat in civ 5.

@Marla_Singer i think a separate battle screen or map or what have you would come with more problems than it solved. The combat would have to thread the needle of empowering the player without making wars trivial by letting the player win every single combat by exploiting the battle mechanics (think how in Total War games a competent human can effortlessly destroy the AI in tactical battles under most circumstances).
 
Stack combat in civ 3 and 4 realized the possibility of geographical, tactical warfare. It was just a little more complicated than the simple optimization problem that is the "tactical" combat in civ 5.

@Marla_Singer i think a separate battle screen or map or what have you would come with more problems than it solved. The combat would have to thread the needle of empowering the player without making wars trivial by letting the player win every single combat by exploiting the battle mechanics (think how in Total War games a competent human can effortlessly destroy the AI in tactical battles under most circumstances).

The way I see it, an army that would be stacked at zoomed-out "strategic" level would progressively appear deployed when zoomed-in at "tactical" level. But it would remain a turn-based game where you can play your units one by one, as it was done in any civ game (MUPT or 1UPT). Each units could still attack, bombard, rest to heal, retreat or do any other battle stuff, however that would be visually managed at a reduced scale that would allow to emancipate from the grid.

So basically, that wouldn't be played much differently as it has ever been. It would only be more visual than a more abstract stack combat. Or for those who enjoy 1UPT; a way to operate 1UPT combat without the drawbacks of scale distortion and clogged moves.
 
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There is no tactical depth to 1UPT. There is arguably more to the old doomstack, do ya bring up a few catapults, or not? Fortify on that forest/hill tile? These don't seem like complex decisions, but they're still impactful, because the AI can actually leverage its strategic bonuses into actual effect.

In contrast, 1UPT, easy win after easy win. AI is gonna blunder around, and although there is a panoply of tactical options available, they're all so trivial as to feel inconsequential.

I think Firaxis has three options, restore SOD to the throne, radically change their AI processes to give competence(least realistic), or let players win every game. It's the 3rd option that's been chosen and it's a bummer for those that want challenge.
 
Stack combat in civ 3 and 4 realized the possibility of geographical, tactical warfare. It was just a little more complicated than the simple optimization problem that is the "tactical" combat in civ 5.

@Marla_Singer i think a separate battle screen or map or what have you would come with more problems than it solved. The combat would have to thread the needle of empowering the player without making wars trivial by letting the player win every single combat by exploiting the battle mechanics (think how in Total War games a competent human can effortlessly destroy the AI in tactical battles under most circumstances).

Sorry to quote you again I tried to manage a visualization with Civ4 captures! 😀

At strategic level (zoomed out), you see a stack on a tile ready to face an opponent stack on another tile:

1740515449054.png



But then when you engage the fight, you're zoomed in and both stacks are progressively showing themselves deployed, so that for instance you can pick which area you would like you cannon to fire on:

1740515537032.png


You wouldn't be "locked" in that view, you could freely leave it on mouse roll to go back to the strategic view and check for another unit or anything else, and then you could get back in again in clicking on the "fire" order of your cannon to pick again the area to fire on. It could be super smooth so that it wouldn't be "different maps", but the same map with different levels of precision.
 
In my humble experience, the people who dislike innovation in interfaces are overwhelmingly the older generations. This applies to the web as much as it does video games.

Anecdotes are gonna anecdote. A lot of it is preference, rooted in nostalgia for what each of us were used to when video games were new to us.
This is likely correct. In my case I'm aware of a pre-screen experience that establishes this nostalgia. I own a couple dozen historical atlases. When they show, e.g. the Roman empire, they show an image taking up a page (or two pages) that spans a stretch of Earth running from modern day Portugal to modern day Syria. On that map, cities are dots, not even the relative size of one Civ V hex. Then there are roads that are little lines. Maybe the map will show resources in which particular regions are especially rich (tin for southern England). Maybe the map will show where the various legions were stationed.

Civ V's map is the one that most closely resembles that. (maybe Civ IV, too; I didn't play much of it; the "spaghetti" roads of Civ III spoil its look). Civ VI and especially Civ VII look like you've zoomed in on the megalopolis on the US eastern seaboard--and forgotten about the rest of the country. Urban sprawl, end-to-end. Doesn't convey the "mood" of an empire, but just of a really big city.
 
making wars trivial by letting the player win every single combat by exploiting the battle mechanics
Which, to be clear... changes nothing, as this is how videogames have generally worked since like, forever. Its less a matter of whether the AI can be beaten by "exploiting the battle mechanics", and more about whether the individual player has figured out how to do it yet, and/or chooses to take advantage of it or not.

This is going to be the case whether we use dice/RNG rolls, SoD, 1UPT, Total War style RTS minigames, or any other method of resolving combat.

Most likely the most significant factor, will be that the more complicated the form of combat, the more easily the human player will be able to find holes, exploits, and weaknesses in the AI. This is why, as you correctly point out, a Total War style combat system will not necessarily "fix" the problem, rather, it might make it worse. The most "exploit" resistant combat system would be to make combat as simple as possible, thereby making it easier for the AI to challenge the human opponent and making it harder for humans to create/discover exploits. I'd say chess is the classic and defining example of this. AI/Computer Chess opponents have been made extremely difficult for humans, even the most skilled humans, to defeat.

The simpler the combat is, the better AI will be at challenging humans at it. The more complicated we make it, the more disappointing AI will be as an opponent. That is yet another reason the SoD is still my preferred option.
 
Stack combat in civ 3 and 4 realized the possibility of geographical, tactical warfare. It was just a little more complicated than the simple optimization problem that is the "tactical" combat in civ 5.

If stack combat was a little more complicated to compute, then AI would fail at it a little more than it does in Civ 5, 6. No, no, the combat system in Civ 4 was simpler, rudimentary. Had less variables - that is why computer could handle it better. I don't mean it in a bad way: rudimentary merely means high level of abstraction. But combat is one thing that deserved to become more concrete, so I didn't mind this de-stacking developers came up with. Less focus on strategic composition and resource management, more emphasis on tactical spatial maneuvering.

I am not really sure what you mean when you say "realised the possibility of geographic, tactical warfare.." and "simple optimisation problem". Both combat systems had within them economics, path finding, strategic composition of army/stack. Different dosage of each though. Perhaps you can elaborate when you get the time.
 
Not all games need a tactical battle map. And imo a game shouldn't try to do everything - as it ends up being good at nothing. But it's not even just about talent - if something has ten variables, you can compute stuff. If it has a million variables, it becomes a soup and it doesn't matter what you do because the result is to occur also with vast numbers of alternative actions of yours.
 
I feel there is imprecision here. Too often 1UPT is contrasted with SoD as if Civs 5+ have strict 1UPT. They don't. Civ 6 had stacks, Civ 5 had stacks and Civ 7 has them (for logistics) is my understanding.
I'm aware that 1UPT allows some unit stacking to varying degrees. My view is that the "limited" stacking of 1UPT is ineffective, in terms of eliminating the effects I dislike... the "sliding puzzle" effect being one example, the eyesore of unit-spam occupying every tile of the map being another.
Civ 4 had absurd level of stacks, proverbial "stacks of doom"
"Absurd" is subjective. I didn't find the SoD absurd at all. I think it matched much better with the abstract nature of Civ. 1UPT "limited" stacking, and the unit-spam/sliding puzzle problems it produces are what I find absurd and off-putting.
One can still stack warplanes in Civ 5 and some other things to get decisive advantage. But not all things and the kitchen sink to throw at your enemy with a single roll of dice.
But of course this is not how Civ4 combat worked. There was generally no "throwing all things and the kitchen sink at your enemy with a single roll of the dice". You could, if you wanted to, aesthetically/temporally resolve combat by moving the entire stack to attack "simultaneously" in one click, but that would only make it appear to resolve the combat in one move. What was actually happening, is that the RNG was conducting dozens of rolls, automatically, one for every single unit's combat, in succession, that would play out in a split second (or sometimes for really large stacks, a couple seconds). Of course this was a far sub-optimal way to play, and folks would only do this if they were rushing and the combat was going to be relatively easy/straightforward... or they had no idea what the optimal order of attack was and they wanted to just let the computer handle deciding based on highest odds attacker v. highest odds defender (or whatever the system was, I forget).

What players would really typically do, is painstakingly conduct each combat manually, one unit in the stack at a time, to optimize the effectiveness of the attack, first with sea/air bombardment, followed by artillery/siege, followed by ground assault, all carefully chosen to optimize the result, by weakening certain defenders, sacrificing certain units, maximizing defense against counter-attack, and so many other considerations. SoD combat was highly tactical, it was just also more abstract, because the attack was mostly coming from a much more limited number of tiles, usually just one or two.
You seem to prefer unlimited stacks, or very large stacks
I do, "unlimited" specifically.
and call That superior approach.
I call it "superior" (to 1UPT/limited stacking) in that it accomplishes the goals that I prefer, ie., eliminating the "sliding puzzle" problem and cutting back dramatically on unit-spam covering the map. "Superior" is not a personal attack on your preferences. I'm not saying my preferences are "better" than yours. I'm explaining what my preferences/priorities are. I don't think that the "tactical" experience of having archers or cannons execute ranged attacks from what would be, based on the map abstraction, hundreds, or thousands of miles away, is worth what I have to give up to get that on an abstract map, ie, sliding puzzle logjams and map scenery covered in unit-spam.
One advantage to limited stacks, as you well know, is that they add the layer of tactical combat.
No, they don't. As explained above, "limited" stacking/1UPT does not "add" tactical combat, it just makes it different and arguably, more complicated, than SoD/unlimited-stacking combat. However, as I've mentioned earlier. Making the combat more complicated than what allows the AI to effectively challenge the player diminishes the enjoyment of the game for some folks, who want the AI to be able to pose a significant military threat.
It used to be that AI with a monkey brain could use SoD to overwhelm superior opponent.
Sure... and that made the military/wargame component of the game much more enjoyable for lots of folks.
Now, human with the knowledge of chokepoints and terrain peculiarities can hold off superior force from capturing cities.
Again, this was always the case, even with SoD combat. A small force of Archers, Longbows or Machineguns could hold a city or chokepoint against vastly larger forces in Civ 4. The difference is that those elements you reference are far more complicated now, so they are more susceptible to human exploits and/or AI shortfalls, leading to a dissatisfying combat experience, where as @Lexicus puts it, "the player win every single combat by exploiting the battle mechanics". So ironically, by making combat more complicated with 1UPT, the game has actually made combat easier for the player to win, because the AI can't manage.

Thinking about it... that's possibly why many folks like 1UPT better than SoD... its easier to win against the AI. I don't mean that as a negative, or criticism of players who prefer 1UPT, everyone prefers whatever they enjoy in a game. I'm just making the observation that making combat more complicated potentially makes things easier on the player and harder on the AI... for now at least.
Or use a small well trained army and realise big gains using tactical combat. There is no overwhelming need to come back to super large stacks any longer, that was an early crude form
As a related aside... I remember combat in Civ 1... there was unlimited unit stacking, however, a critical game-defining difference, was that there was no stacking effect on defense unless you were in a city or fortress. This meant that if your stack got attacked, the only unit that would defend was the strongest unit you had in the stack, and if that unit was defeated you lost your entire stack:eek::faint: That system made defending from inside the city tile an essential tactic, because it was the only way you could effectively defend using all your available units.
Yes, AI being stupid could handle SoD warfare better. Which means Firaxis can work on AI more in future iterations, not nerf the very possibility of realising geographical, tactical warfare by making a step back within a constantly progressing abstraction known as Civilization series.
I'd like to see the game have an option to turn unlimited stacking on or off... that way those who prefer the SoD that allows the AI to be more challenging in combat can continue to enjoy that, while those who prefer the more complicated terrain tactics of 1UPT/limited stacking can enjoy that as well.
 
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Which, to be clear... changes nothing, as this is how videogames have generally worked since like, forever. Its less a matter of whether the AI can be beaten by "exploiting the battle mechanics", and more about whether the individual player has figured out how to do it yet, and/or chooses to take advantage of it or not.

This is going to be the case whether we use dice/RNG rolls, SoD, 1UPT, Total War style RTS minigames, or any other method of resolving combat.

Most likely the most significant factor, will be that the more complicated the form of combat, the more easily the human player will be able to find holes, exploits, and weaknesses in the AI. This is why, as you correctly point out, a Total War style combat system will not necessarily "fix" the problem, rather, it might make it worse. The most "exploit" resistant combat system would be to make combat as simple as possible, thereby making it easier for the AI to challenge the human opponent and making it harder for humans to create/discover exploits. I'd say chess is the classic and defining example of this. AI/Computer Chess opponents have been made extremely difficult for humans, even the most skilled humans, to defeat.

The simpler the combat is, the better AI will be at challenging humans at it. The more complicated we make it, the more disappointing AI will be as an opponent. That is yet another reason the SoD is still my preferred option.

I agree with this, and I would add that for a strategy game at the level of abstraction of Civilization, the player should not have much influence on tactics anyway. "Strategy" implies that most of the action consists in constructing a military (by building units) and then engaging in diplomatic decisions to decide where and when to fight. I get the sense that a lot of players that civ 5-7 are trying to appeal to don't like being punished for neglecting their military and/or diplomacy by having the AI invade them with an unbeatable stack of units, but famously one of the main objects of "strategy" is precisely to avoid getting into unwinnable wars. This, imo, is what civ should be focusing on - the role of "tactical" decisions should be minimal or nonexistent. The stacks of civ 4 actually do a decent job of simulating operational (as opposed to tactical) considerations though.

Sorry to quote you again I tried to manage a visualization with Civ4 captures! 😀

At strategic level (zoomed out), you see a stack on a tile ready to face an opponent stack on another tile:

View attachment 722068


But then when you engage the fight, you're zoomed in and both stacks are progressively showing themselves deployed, so that for instance you can pick which area you would like you cannon to fire on:

View attachment 722071

You wouldn't be "locked" in that view, you could freely leave it on mouse roll to go back to the strategic view and check for another unit or anything else, and then you could get back in again in clicking on the "fire" order of your cannon to pick again the area to fire on. It could be super smooth so that it wouldn't be "different maps", but the same map with different levels of precision.

I don't see any way to implement this that wouldn't mean you are basically obligated to play combat at the highest level of zoom in order to ensure the best possible outcome, which could easily lead to the "human wins every single combat" problem.
If stack combat was a little more complicated to compute, then AI would fail at it a little more than it does in Civ 5, 6. No, no, the combat system in Civ 4 was simpler, rudimentary. Had less variables - that is why computer could handle it better. I don't mean it in a bad way: rudimentary merely means high level of abstraction. But combat is one thing that deserved to become more concrete, so I didn't mind this de-stacking developers came up with. Less focus on strategic composition and resource management, more emphasis on tactical spatial maneuvering.

I am not really sure what you mean when you say "realised the possibility of geographic, tactical warfare.." and "simple optimisation problem". Both combat systems had within them economics, path finding, strategic composition of army/stack. Different dosage of each though. Perhaps you can elaborate when you get the time.

Complexity in a different sense, I guess. Chess is one of the most complex strategy games in existence, but the complexity emerges from a simple set of in-game entities (different pieces) and a very simple interaction between them (capturing). Civ 4 has a simpler set of elements and interactions but the set of decisions and outcomes that emeged from those elements felt more complex to me than civ 5. Like I said, civ 5's combat is basically just an optimization problem, once you know the combat systems there is pretty clearly 1 right answer to any given situation and you just have to do it. In civ 4 there are so many interesting considerations like how to compose a stack, where and when to offer battle, whether to give up some territory to buy time to keep building units....a lot of the more interesting and consequential decisions happen before the war even starts, which, again, is how a strategy game should work.
 
I don't see any way to implement this that wouldn't mean you are basically obligated to play combat at the highest level of zoom in order to ensure the best possible outcome, which could easily lead to the "human wins every single combat" problem.

Sorry if that wasn't clear but I never proposed different systems of combat resolution. There's only one single combat mechanic, I only proposed that it would be visualized more in details, so that it would be easier for the player to understand what's going on, why such unit fails or succeeds. There can't be any exploit in something that is only visual.

The point is mainly adressed at uninitiated players to make combat more intuitive to grab without having to study tedious statistics.

Now I don't know if that's the right way to do it. I may be wrong. Maybe smaller tiles within a tile is a better idea, but I deeply believe that something should be done in this regard that can't be properly done at a one-size-fits-all tile level. Because it's that obsession to have everything pictured at the size of a hex which has lead Civ7 to become what it is. The game must emancipate itself from hexes in a way or another.
 
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Here I'm giving another shot, but this time to picture how we can have very detailed cities that don't need to be moulded in tiles.


When zoomed out, we could see the tiles being represented like that (sorry I drew squares rather than hexes because that was easier):

1740524474390.png




But when zoomed in, on simple mouse roll, we could see all London details like that:

1740524576558.png




Those aren't different maps. It's all one and the same.
 
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I get the sense that a lot of players that civ 5-7 are trying to appeal to don't like being punished for neglecting their military and/or diplomacy by having the AI invade them with an unbeatable stack of units, but famously one of the main objects of "strategy" is precisely to avoid getting into unwinnable wars.
I think the lack of unbeatable stacks is a deliberate design decision prompted by the switch to 1UPT and its mechanical consequences.

IIRC 4 deity got weightier bonuses than any later installment. AI doesn't just struggle from a lack of tactical ability, because of the switch, Firaxis had to choose between irritating players through the decision fatigue of maneuvering 30+ units per turn, or scaling down AI material advantages, and the latter does reduce strategic depth.

They could give the AI as much weight as it needs to be a credible threat regardless of tactical limitations. +600, 800% hammers could do it. Even veterans would get irritated with the tedium of ordering around their counterforce, though. It's lose lose.
 
I get the sense that a lot of players that civ 5-7 are trying to appeal to don't like being punished for neglecting their military and/or diplomacy by having the AI invade them with an unbeatable stack of units, but famously one of the main objects of "strategy" is precisely to avoid getting into unwinnable wars. This, imo, is what civ should be focusing on - the role of "tactical" decisions should be minimal or nonexistent. The stacks of civ 4 actually do a decent job of simulating operational (as opposed to tactical) considerations though.
Army size and strength via loss of "macro" control (to borrow an RTS term) exists in V to VII though. Ways to force-multiply tile value for military units exists in VI and VII, in such a way that it's not as simple as "we both have twenty tiles worth of units therefore the strategic level becomes less important due to less available map space".

I also disagree that in any game "tactical" decisions should be minimal. I just don't phrase that preference as some kind of skill issue. I certainly think there's more evidence to support the franchise has always valued quite a bit more tactical depth than barely any.

But then again I was saying this to RTS players 20 years ago, hah. Preference!
 
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