Which Market System Is The Best?

If You Could Choose A Market System Which One Would It Be?

  • Free Market - Little or No Government Intervention

    Votes: 17 33.3%
  • Mixed - More Free Market Than Command

    Votes: 22 43.1%
  • Mixed - More Command Than Free Market

    Votes: 6 11.8%
  • Command or Planned - Fully Complete or Nearly Complete Government Intervention

    Votes: 5 9.8%
  • I have no idea what this poll is about

    Votes: 1 2.0%
  • I Don't Know, Don't Care, or Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    51
"*points at Allan and Hamlet* "YEAH, what THEY said!!!" "

Actually I don't think Hamlet and I agree fully. I voted free market, not mixed. Read my post again to understand why.

"Without regulation, all those scary movies you see about apocalyptic futures with corporations in charge and oppressing everyone in sight will someday come true."

Such "apocalyptic futures" will happen if big business continues to be in bed with government. I wish to end that relationship COMPLETELY. And to end it, you must sever ALL interaction, other than simple laws like "no force or fraud" against other entities or people. I say again, even regulations DESIGNED TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE will (as they already have) degenerate into an avenue by which certain politically-connected businesses find loopholes to bludgeon the competition. Look at the EPA for some very good examples of this. AS LONG AS GOVERNMENT HAS A HAND IN THE ECONOMY, MORE POWERFUL ELEMENTS OF THE ECONOMY WILL END UP DIRECTING THAT HAND. If government no longer can be a large source of power (i.e. it becomes LIMITED), then the power-hungry will have nowhere to go. And that is precisely what I want.

PEOPLE can regulate business as they see fit by not buying the products of offenders. In this, the free market can be the ultimate democracy. People today rely on the government to make these decisions for them, and yet despite their illusion government really does not make the intended decisions, nor will it. Take away all pretense of government intervention, and the people will HAVE TO step in and become informed for themselves. And unlike 100 years ago, TODAY they can--with the internet, consumer watchdog networks, etc. I believe society has evolved to the point where it is capable of embracing libertarian government--but it will require individual responsibility to do so. Such responsibility should be encouraged.
 
Socially, I think there should be as little government intervention as possible. After all, government was created just to serve the people. People should be allowed to make their own decisions. In this way I think we need to stop criminalizing victimless acts such as drug use, prostitution, gambling, etc.

But economically, I think there should be some government intervention. A capitalist economy is built off of one thing: greed. Companies put profits first and everything else next or not at all. I am not a socialist but I think a mixed economy is the most effective and fair way to go. If free market corporations run unchecked by the government then they will abuse workers and the public. That being said, I recognize the fact that the government working alongside corporations for their own interests would a very scary thing indeed. I voted for #3.
 
Originally posted by Hamlet
It still isn't a 'nation', btw, and it never has been, technically.
Heh, minor typo. I said Nation the second time and meant it the first.
Depends on your definition thereof... Hong Kong was completely independant from China for a long time, and even with the autonomy they have no the reunification wasn't smooth.

Originally posted by sysyphus
Contrary to popular belief, America is one of the highest regulated countries in the world.
No, its not.
And I haven't been talking about regulations. I mentioned twice I was talking about state-owned and run industries, and government controls on what is produced (Like during WW2).

Regulations are fine as long as they are limited and frequently scrutinized.

Originally posted by Hamlet
In America? :lol:
All 4 of them?
There are like 6 or 7 now... actually the problem is that socialization of economies perpetuate themselves without any active socialists helping it. That is why government expenditure as precentage of GDP keeps creeping up.

And then there are people like this ---->
Originally posted by ApocalypseKurtz
A capitalist economy is built off of one thing: greed. I voted for #3.
He's American. And he votes.
 
A capitalist economy is built off of one thing: greed. I voted for #3.

yes it's designed off greed.... DUH! how better to motivate people than usin their own greed to havethem help the rest of the people?
 
Originally posted by SKILORD


yes it's designed off greed.... DUH! how better to motivate people than usin their own greed to havethem help the rest of the people?

The problem is that this greed we speak of does not help the public. This greed motivates the capitalist to earn money for himself at all costs, with little to no regard for other issues.
 
(Response to my previous claim about America being the highest regulated country in the world)


Originally posted by Greadius

No, its not.
And I haven't been talking about regulations. I mentioned twice I was talking about state-owned and run industries, and government controls on what is produced (Like during WW2).


Sorry, but I have to disagree . You may think I don't know what I'm talking about, coming from a different country and all, but I do much international business, including alot in the US, I am quite familliar with the quality and standards requirements down there, as well as financial system regulations (i.e. mergers, monopolies, insider trading etc.)

Of course the American government doesn't flaunt this given how right-wing the American people are.

As for your statement on state-owned and run buisness, that I believe is true.

Now Canada on the other hand isn't as tight as America in regulation, but we have a high number of state-owned companies (and well, actually, I work for one). Although the trend here is similar to the trend in Europe where much of it is being privatised (though not all, if the health care system up here fell into private hands there would be gnashing of teeth!)
 
i chose 2nd option.
Why?I will explain.
sometimes its better that the goverment controls the company.
look what a mess there is now of the british rairoad tottaly messed up
or the energy in california.
tottaly messed up
so by big companys it is better they are controlled by goverment by small companys free market THAt is the ideal system
 
I disagree with the idea of state-owned industries.

Private owned companies have to make a profit, i.e. more money coming in than going out.

Publicly owned industries, what do they need to do? If they waste some money, so what? There's lots more to take.
 
Originally posted by ApocalypseKurtz
The problem is that this greed we speak of does not help the public. This greed motivates the capitalist to earn money for himself at all costs, with little to no regard for other issues.
:rolleyes: Stereotyping. I want politicians to care about other issues. I want business owners to get me quality, cheap products when I want them for a reasonable price. I don't know why we place expectations on our corperations to be anything more than moderately responsible and financially accountable. In my opinion, the most important thing an industry needs to be is efficient. The only guarantee state run industries give is that they will be inefficient.
There is a lot of room between blood-thirsty money-grubbing greed, and I want a nice big house with an expensive car greed. Most of the successfull entrepeneurs who do a lot more to keep us rich, fat, and happy than any politicians aren't evil, they are average people with high ambitions and a knack for making a good deal.

Originally posted by sysyphus
Sorry, but I have to disagree . You may think I don't know what I'm talking about, coming from a different country and all, but I do much international business, including alot in the US, I am quite familliar with the quality and standards requirements down there, as well as financial system regulations (i.e. mergers, monopolies, insider trading etc.)
I still was not talking about regulations :)
I realize the U.S. economy is heavily regulated, and consider that they do a pretty okay job of it since most entrepeneurs and businesses can still practice fairly freely. U.S. regulations are more concerned with keeping businesses from operating below a minimum standards as compared to stopping the business activity from taking place.
And I'd also have to say that regulations are all relative, and many of the regulations that are in place would be in place in other countries, but enforcing them is too difficult or time-consuming.
 
A planed market would be the best, that is if someone could know and plan it exactly - the we would have a perfect resource management.

The problem is to know exactly what will be effective and so on that's why capatelism works a bit better cuz we have a lot more people trying to plan. Someone will be right.
 
Originally posted by vonork
A planed market would be the best, that is if someone could know and plan it exactly - the we would have a perfect resource management.

The problem is to know exactly what will be effective and so on that's why capatelism works a bit better cuz we have a lot more people trying to plan. Someone will be right.

You have just nailed why planned economies don't, and never will, work. Nobody can know what needs to go where, and when, to keep an economy moving. Committees are terrible at making decisions about what color the rest rooms should be, let alone resource allocation, capital management, consumer needs, etc., etc., on a national scale. The self adjusting nature of a free market economy is far more efficient, because those in business are reacting to the needs of consumers and suppliers, as well as real-time economic conditions, and not the opinions of self-important government bureaucrats.
 
The free market. Let people be free. The command economy is anti-freedom and goes against natural human economics. You can't have "expert" planners run a country.
 
"Pure free market would be bad as monopolies would take over and the consumer would get screwed."

How so? Monopolies can occur either naturally or artificially:

Naturally, if the product produced is considered superior enough by the consumers that no other producer can capture their interest--a producer would then have a monopoly, UNTIL someone else manages to produce a superior product and can market it effectively. Such NATURAL monopolies are very rare in a true laissez-faire environment (and please remember that despite what you may have been taught in your high-school history classes, the US in the late 1800s was NOT truly "laissez-faire"--rather, big business, then as now, OWNED government.)

Artificially, monopolies can occur if favorable conditions are GIVEN them by an entity with such power to give (i.e. a government). Favoritism can either enhance the position of the favored at the expense of a competitor, or at its extreme can dictate that no competitors can exist against the favored.

Since natural monopolies are rare and likely temporary, monopolies tend to happen MORE under governments that interfere in high degree with the economy.

A natural monopoly isn't a bad thing--it is imposed by the will of the people who buy the products. Artificial monopolies on the other hand, are bad, because factors other than product quality and consumer satisfaction are at work--when such monopolies are IMPOSED on the people, quality indeed DOES suffer invariably, because the NEED for high quality is removed. Natural monopolies on the other hand MUST sustain high quality if they are to keep their monopoly.

In the US, the imposition of artificial monopolies, which COULD otherwise occur because of political connection and favoritism, is put in check by antitrust law. But that law is only "necessary" because of the government's own tendencies here. Both could be removed. Indeed, most of US interference in the economy can be summed up as balancing the effects of its own favoritism and corruption with moderating "liberal" actions promoted by the left. We could remove BOTH and strike an even better balance, IMHO.
 
I voted for option # 2, "Mixed - More Free Market Than Command".

Reasons:

1. The issue isn't so much greed as self-motivation; people with the ability to make decisions for themselves and who are able to profit from their own work are more motivated to efficiently create good quality goods and services. Competition keeps the prices low.

2. As someone who's lived in a planned economy - several, actually - I can assure you they suck. If you don't believe me, then go now to your local drivers license clerk or immigration/visa office and ask yourself, "Do I want a bureaucracy like this one making critical economic decisions for me and my country?" No matter how many PhDs and eggheads you put in 'em, you still have a bureaucracy at the end of the day and they all end up behaving like your local postal service when they've lost a package and you're standing there with the little delivery slip. Samuel P. Huntington wrote about this institutional behavioralism, and man does it apply to bureaucracies in planned economies. I've lived under Gosplan and fail to see what attraction anyone could have to it.

3. What really toppled the communist regimes in Eastern Europe wasn't so much Reagan making all those "evil this" and "evil that" speeches, it was the glaring reality that Western products, services and living standards were obviously so myuch better than those in the Peoples Republic's paradises. Every can of Coca Cola, every pair of Levis or Volkswagen, every terrible episode of Dallas on Austrian TV that could be seen in Eastern Europe was a screaming reminder that life sucks in a planned economy (plus that dictatorship thing). Screw Hayak and Chomsky; free markets and free trade created such quality of life in the West unparalleled anywhere else and the implication was clear.

However, while a committed free-marketer, I do not subscribe to lessez-faire capitalism, because:

1. To quote the noted American Conservative writer, George Will: "Capitalism is a government program." Government facilitates capitalism by creating a level (legal) playing field, guaranteeing stability in the banking and investment sectors, prosecuting frauds (look at Marty Frankel), providing general security, providing incentives for targetted economic classes or sectors, etc. Every time you see a government leader traveling abroad, you'll notice just outside camera range behind them is a coterie of business leaders, all going along on government coattails to lobby for business issues.

2. As a few have pointed out, while business benefits society, too much of a good thing can as usual be bad. Businesses only plan according to economic quarters. It is up to government to ensure against Enron-like disasters that can have society-wide economic consequences.

3. The massive expansion of the Middle Class in the past two centuries has been largely as a result of intentional government "meddling". Governments need to level out societies somewhat, ensuring that while those who are productive are able to profit commensurately from their labors, that all society also benefits from them. Better said, a government guarantees a certain living standard for all its citizens through re-distribution of wealth. This is to everyone's benefit, for reasons relating to health, etc. The measure of how much re-distribution should happen is not something any two modern capitalist countries agree on, but all do it to differing extents.

The bottom line: Capitalism is a good thing and we've all benefitted immensely from it. I live dramatically better than my parents did, and that has been generally true with each generation ever since the industrial revolution. However, capitalism did this with guidance and correction from government. Too much of one or the other and the result usually is great suffering.
 
Free market with some regulations seems the most moderate system, and the best. Unrestricted would actually frighten me.
 
natural monopolies are rare and likely temporary
I am not sure if you know what a natural monopoly is. A natural monopoly is something like a water company supplying all the water to one place. It is a monopoly not because of the consumers like that company but due to the huge start-up costs of laying the pipes etc. The same could happen in any industry where due to the high start-up costs it is only profitable for one company. In many countries to avoid market failure these companies would be state-owned (i.e. BT and British Rail). They are not temporary because as long as there is the barrier to entry they will remain a monopoly. Also to sum up the difference between the American and European approaches to monopolies. In America a monopoly is bad unless proven good. In Europe a monopoly is acceptable unless proven bad. Don't forget there are many advantages of having monopolies but they can also be very very harmful.
 
in the end, the people get f*cked over in a free market, eventually some big corperations will unite, monopolizing the world and taking control.
 
Originally posted by scorch
in the end, the people get f*cked over in a free market, eventually some big corperations will unite, monopolizing the world and taking control.
What do you mean? Do you mean that in the end... US gets a... *gasp* LIBERAL PRESIDENT?!
:eek: :eek: :eek:
 
"However, while a committed free-marketer, I do not subscribe to lessez-faire capitalism, because:

"1. To quote the noted American Conservative writer, George Will: "Capitalism is a government program." Government facilitates capitalism by creating a level (legal) playing field,"

This is a minimum function of a government anywhere: provide courts, and the rule of law (one law for everyone). I don't see this as extraneous intervention--just one reason that government is necessary.

"guaranteeing stability in the banking and investment sectors,"

Insuring banks? Not necessarily a role of a bare MINIMALIST government, but I have no trouble with government doing it. SOMEONE should do it anyway. If government stopped doing it though, insured deposits have become so much of an industry standard that someone else would do it--because no one would make deposits in an uninsured bank these days.

"prosecuting frauds (look at Marty Frankel), providing general security,"

Both minimum roles of government. Laws against fraud and violence, and maintenance of armed services. Again, nothing extraneous about this.

"providing incentives for targetted economic classes or sectors,"

This is where you start getting into favoritism and corruption. Whom do you target? Which industries do you subsidize? This is stuff we can do without.

"etc. Every time you see a government leader traveling abroad, you'll notice just outside camera range behind them is a coterie of business leaders, all going along on government coattails to lobby for business issues."

See how much business is in bed with government? They make up a class of conniving sycophants. Will makes this sound like there is nothing that can be done to change that fact--I don't think it's so hopeless. But people have to WANT minimum government, to deprive government of extraneous powers to sell. People like me have their work cut out for them in convincing them.

"2. As a few have pointed out, while business benefits society, too much of a good thing can as usual be bad. Businesses only plan according to economic quarters."

In pure capitalism with no political interference, the long-term thinking companies will be far more successful. I'm not entirely sure why many CEOs are so short-term in their thinking--I'll have to explore that more, but I don't have an MBA--but maybe part of it is that government provides them too much security (bailouts, subsidies, etc.) to make long-term thinking vital; or maybe it's the complicated tax code that actually favors losses and inefficiency in business; or maybe the political playing field changes so much (shifting political alliances and favors, etc.) that it is really quite difficult to plan long term, depending on the nature of the industry and political involvement.

But shortsightedness is not inherent to corporate heads--there are some corporations that indeed DO think very long-term (particularly in cutting-edge technology fields, but there are others too), and they do well. Of course, there is always more risk in long-term thinking and commitment, but also more potential reward....

"It is up to government to ensure against Enron-like disasters that can have society-wide economic consequences."

Prosecute and punish "white-collar" fraud like "blue-collar" fraud, and the Enron rip-off probably would never have happened. Again, prosecuting fraud is nothing special--it is expected of even the most minimal of governments. Government should do its MINIMAL, VITAL duties much better than it does by the way (maybe if they cut out their extraneous distractions...)--and be VERY draconian in cases like these. We're talking people's life savings here....

"3. The massive expansion of the Middle Class in the past two centuries has been largely as a result of intentional government "meddling"."

Care to elaborate? I think the middle class mainly evolved from the increased diversification of the economy (through technological progression among other things), and the increase in demand for skilled or specialized labor--and as this progressed, the creation of industries and services to satisfy the increased whims of more and more disposable income. Unions helped in some cases, IN SPITE OF early government attempts to crush them (by ignoring laws against violence in the case of strikebreaking thugs, among other things)--and in some industries they can grow without help (this seems to be happening slowly in Minnesota, with unionized retail workers--but has happened DRAMATICALLY over the years in carpentry and other crafts). The middle class happened because it WAS NECESSARY to sustain the needs of a developed economy. Remember that in those awful late 1800s, the economy was still DEVELOPING, industry was far more labor-intensive, and the agricultural sector was still very big.

That all said, I've often thought of a libertarian society as something that must be evolved into--i.e. it can only arise when conditions are right for it (just like the communists who say that society must pass through capitalism first, and claim they are the "next step" in political evolution). I.e., I look at a country like Guatemala (where I lived for a year), and say, "libertarianism can't happen here yet." Why? It wouldn't work with 1% of the people controlling 90% of the economy (the cronyism needs to be abolished there though--definitely--or the country will continue to go nowhere. But "progressive" liberal policies may be needed for a time, since unlike the US, Guatemala hasn't the size or resources to grow into a very diverse economy by itself--maybe a Latin American economic union would help this though). The economy is not DIVERSIFIED enough at the present time. I believe it is in the US though. Whether government had the MAJOR hand in this (and you can present your case for this and we can discuss it--I'll allow that some things it did may have been helpful in their time), or it evolved naturally from development and advancement, the fact remains that we are now diversified enough that we need not fear the economy falling into too few hands should the government disengage. I believe libertarianism, with its abolishment of corruption (done by making it impossible), is the next step of political evolution--and probably the final one....

"Governments need to level out societies somewhat, ensuring that while those who are productive are able to profit commensurately from their labors, that all society also benefits from them."

Things are really quite "level" now. Not in terms of ACTUAL wealth, but in terms of opportunity. I.e. a kid growing up in poverty can get a college education--through student loans (I have no problem with government LOANING money) or through the GI Bill (I have no problem with military benefits either--just as I don't with corporate benefits. Whatever quid pro quo is needed to attract employees is fine with me). And again, as you said, the middle class is large and robust. And the poor have TVs and cars (unlike in many other places).

So while I accept the inevitable and natural FACT that people indeed will never be "equal" in terms of wealth or ability, I believe our economy is sufficiently developed, and sufficiently dependent on skilled labor, that it can go forward uninhibited without us having to fear it.

"Better said, a government guarantees a certain living standard for all its citizens through re-distribution of wealth. This is to everyone's benefit, for reasons relating to health, etc. The measure of how much re-distribution should happen is not something any two modern capitalist countries agree on, but all do it to differing extents."

My principles tell me, "taking the fruits of one's labor against a person's will is wrong." However, as a (SLIGHTLY!) left-leaning libertarian who believes libertarianism is an EVOLUTION, the relative pittance we spend on basic welfare (compared to many other things) is not necessarily my first priority for change. I think changing the OTHER things should make the welfare state obsolete however. I.e. the increased prosperity from doing the other things, will ensure that charity becomes sufficient (if it isn't now) for the TRULY unable needy. People DO give when they see real need, for the most part. And all those middle-class democrats who favor welfare now, well, they can give their savings in taxes to charity then, and most if not all of it WILL ACTUALLY GET TO THE INTENDED NEEDY!--unlike now. Obviously they WANT to help the needy, right? I myself give to diverse charities when I can....

One thing I believe about welfare is that it creates dependence--and that this is INTENTIONAL. I.e. politicians and their organizations that promote it are helped by a bloc of dependent voters their policies have created. Remember too, it is never in the interest of a bureaucracy to take steps that would ultimately eliminate the perceived need for their work--i.e., it is never in their vested interests to SOLVE any problem, but just to remain "busy at it." Bureaucrats are ultimately parasites, to be quite blunt and honest....

But again, like I said in a post above, most government intervention is in one of two forms:

a) Cronyist favoritism, i.e. "being in bed with big business", and
b) "Progressive" policies intended to strike a balance with (a) and alleviate the worst perceived consequences of (a).

Republicans tend to be the force for (a), and democrats for (b) (although each dabbles in the other as well--increasingly so these days).

I propose removing both, to achieve a better balance and to eliminate corruption and waste. To make capitalism really be all it CAN be!
 
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