Which person(s) in history intrigue you the most?

[Richard Cribb]

why do you disagree with that assessment ?

Because of his relationship to the Thirty Tyrants and his hatred of democracy, see for instance this article which is not exactly breaking news:http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/ifstoneonsocrates.html
It is not by accident that his most famous pupil was Plato, whose opinion regarding democracy and working class should be well-known.For those who has time available, I could also recommend:http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/socrates/ which shows Socrates' ideological development and also highlights the relationship between on one hand idealism and aristocracy, and on the other hand materialism and democracy.
At least for me, this is not an exemplary sense of "justice" and "virtue", nor a qualified challenge on established reason in regard of improvement.

 

[vogtmurr]

Because of his relationship to the Thirty Tyrants and his hatred of democracy, see for instance this article which is not exactly breaking news:http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/ifstoneonsocrates.html
It is not by accident that his most famous pupil was Plato, whose opinion regarding democracy and working class should be well-known.For those who has time available, I could also recommend:http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/socrates/ which shows Socrates' ideological development and also highlights the relationship between on one hand idealism and aristocracy, and on the other hand materialism and democracy.
At least for me, this is not an exemplary sense of "justice" and "virtue", nor a qualified challenge on established reason in regard of improvement.

After reading the first article - I thought this revisionist view was pretty weak. Plato's Apology is supposedly Socrates' last testament - he speaks for himself, and has to be taken in the context of his times. Your viewing democracy as an iconic institution, above reproach, but I simply don't think democracy in itself is inherently virtuous, it's only as good as the people it represents. And Socrates had ample opportunity to witness the excesses of Athens in the Peloponnesian War, and what their democracy meant for the inhabitants of Chalcis, Aegina, Melos, Mytilene. So his perceptions on democracy are different from ours, when there were many enlightened 'tyrants' in his time to compare to.

My memories of Plato are not fresh, but funny I never got the impression they hated democracy; only that there was room for improvement; they still thought it was better than the government of many states. It's much like academics and philosophers today who may point out the failings of society, but do so within the comfort and security of a tolerant state, only Athens wasn't so tolerant in the end. The Italian city-state 'Republics' were little more than Mafia-run syndicates for that matter.

The biggest indictment of Athenian democracy comes from Thucydides in my opinion, and it's pretty hard to argue with. Although his history is not intended as a political statement, it serves as a vivid illustration of the failure of democracy, which ultimately led to Athens' complete demise, despite numerous opportunities to end it honorably.

 

[Richard Cribb]

After reading the first article - I thought this revisionist view was pretty weak. Plato's Apology is supposedly Socrates' last testament - he speaks for himself, and has to be taken in the context of his times. Your viewing democracy as an iconic institution, above reproach, but I simply don't think democracy in itself is inherently virtuous, it's only as good as the people it represents. And Socrates had ample opportunity to witness the excesses of Athens in the Peloponnesian War, and what their democracy meant for the inhabitants of Chalcis, Aegina, Melos, Mytilene. So his perceptions on democracy are different from ours, when there were many enlightened 'tyrants' in his time to compare to.

My memories of Plato are not fresh, but funny I never got the impression they hated democracy; only that there was room for improvement; they still thought it was better than the government of many states. It's much like academics and philosophers today who may point out the failings of society, but do so within the comfort and security of a tolerant state, only Athens wasn't so tolerant in the end. The Italian city-state 'Republics' were little more than Mafia-run syndicates for that matter.

The biggest indictment of Athenian democracy comes from Thucydides in my opinion, and it's pretty hard to argue with. Although his history is not intended as a political statement, it serves as a vivid illustration of the failure of democracy, which ultimately led to Athens' complete demise, despite numerous opportunities to end it honorably.

I don't have much time for internet activities this week, so I apologize for not being able to write any detailed answer right now.
But judging from some of your claims above, it seems to me that you didn't read that article thoroughly.
A quick refreshing on some of Plato's dialogues could also easily lead you to the conclusion that perhaps neither he nor Socrates was not so innocent neither.

 

[Plotinus]

I have to agree with vogtmurr there - I am no expert on this particular subject but as far as I can tell most scholars think Socrates was not allied with any political faction and seems to have taken relatively little interest in politics, being certainly critical of democracy but also of most other such systems. Stone's case remains at the very least unproven and controversial, so it seems to me to offer too slim a basis for assessing Socrates. Certainly Plato was highly anti-democracy, although of course we must remember that "democracy" in ancient Athens bore little resemblance to what we mean by that word today.

 

[Richard Cribb]

I have to agree with vogtmurr there - I am no expert on this particular subject but as far as I can tell most scholars think Socrates was not allied with any political faction and seems to have taken relatively little interest in politics, being certainly critical of democracy but also of most other such systems. Stone's case remains at the very least unproven and controversial, so it seems to me to offer too slim a basis for assessing Socrates. Certainly Plato was highly anti-democracy, although of course we must remember that "democracy" in ancient Athens bore little resemblance to what we mean by that word today.

Like I said, I have no time to go in detail right now, so just a few general remarks.My apologies for eventual bad syntacs or incoherence.
- Only from Stone's interview I think I can see one who did take quite an interest in politics, one who educated one of the worst of the Thirty Tyrants, and one who continued his activities after democracy had been restored. If there is something wrong with any of those claims or the sources used to back said claims, at least have the kindness to point that out. I can also remind you that I posted another link which is much more comprehensive. If this thread still lives when I return home in some 10 days, I might have a look at some of my own old production regarding this topic.
- I can only repeat that I have no illusions about the Athenian "democracy". But I think it is pretty clear that people like Plato and Socrates attacked it mainly because of elements at least you and I would regard as progressive. I am impertinent enough to take Plato's dialogues regarding justice and politics reasonably seriously. I am also impertinent enough to bring that dreaded 5-letter word starting on c into this.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I would guess it's because the evidence suggests that Socrates insisted he had no sense of justice and virtue or indeed of anything else. Whether we take that claim seriously or not is of course a question as old as Socrates himself.

That's just humility. Only the vain and arrogant think they know everything.

 

[holy king]

I don't like them because they're witty, I just love the idea of a British Prime Minister being so crude. Same reason I love Prince Phillip.

How do you keep the natives off the booze long enough to get them through the test?

* Said to a driving instructor in Scotland,

 

[vogtmurr]

How do you keep the natives off the booze long enough to get them through the test?

* Said to a driving instructor in Scotland,

There's a thread in humour called "dumb quotes" that's chalk full of these. not that i was for a minute complaining, just thought you might like to know.

 

[citedon]

Alexander the Great would have been interesting to meet, but he was always kind of busy and would have probably not wanted to waste time talking with somebody like me.

 

[Dachs]

Alexander the Great would have been interesting to meet, but he was always kind of busy and would have probably not wanted to waste time talking with somebody like me.

Plutarch says Alexander had a chat with some little Indian snot that insulted him so badly that he ordered that he be hunted down and killed. Said snot escaped the halfhearted pursuit and in a few years created the Maurya Empire, taking the name Chandragupta...

 

[bombshoo]

I always like the scientific and cultural figures who are ahead of their time. Like Abbas Ibn Firnas (Moorish scientist who experimented with flight in the 800s) and Leonado De Vinci.

 

[Eli]

I wouldn't mind spending a few days talking with Alcibiades.

 

[vogtmurr]

Plutarch says Alexander had a chat with some little Indian snot that insulted him so badly that he ordered that he be hunted down and killed. Said snot escaped the halfhearted pursuit and in a few years created the Maurya Empire, taking the name Chandragupta...

You know I just read the passage and I got a different interpretation that it was the Nanda King who put the price on his head - Chadragupta was rather impressed with Alexander.

Presented by his mentor Chanakya to the Nanda king, the young Mauryan provided a novel solution to a problem posed to him, which so impressed the king, the youth was sent to Taxila, a center of learning. There “when he was a stripling, saw Alexander himself, and … often said in later times that Alexander narrowly missed making himself master of the country, since its king was hated and despised”. As Chandragupta asserted himself he upset the same king with his frank assessment, and was condemned in absentia.

 

[Dachs]

You know I just read the passage and I got a different interpretation that it was the Nanda King who put the price on his head - Chadragupta was rather impressed with Alexander.

Presented by his mentor Chanakya to the Nanda king, the young Mauryan provided a novel solution to a problem posed to him, which so impressed the king, the youth was sent to Taxila, a center of learning. There “when he was a stripling, saw Alexander himself, and … often said in later times that Alexander narrowly missed making himself master of the country, since its king was hated and despised”. As Chandragupta asserted himself he upset the same king with his frank assessment, and was condemned in absentia.

Yeah, silly me, I confused Justin with Plutarch and Alexandros with Chandragupta. Meh, it was late and I was tired.

 

[innonimatu]

Cleisthenes. I'd like to know how it happened that an aristocrat put together the first stable and enduring democratic regime on historical record, and why he seems to have vanished afterwards.

 

[vogtmurr]

I wouldn't mind spending a few days talking with Alcibiades.

Cleisthenes. I'd like to know how it happened that an aristocrat put together the first stable and enduring democratic regime on historical record, and why he seems to have vanished afterwards.

Two interesting Athenians for two different reasons.

 

[Squonk]

Muhammad is an interesting person, that is someone I'd like to meet or get to know the most, apart from |Christ, but Christ is not a political leader.

 

[Racsoviale]

hmmm. I think I'm gonna get flammed for this but I find Arnold Schwarzenegger to be quite a fascinating person. Now before you all throw rocks at me hear me out, he in my mind embodies the american way/spirit/idea more than anything, which together with his impressive achievements makes him fascinating as to how an immigrant can come to the USA and be extremely succesfull.(I dont really know/care about his politics, but I think I would disagree with a lot of his politics though)

Sidenote: I also wanted to present someone else than the usual suspects: jesus, ghandi and churchill, and someone who is still alive

 

[citedon]

hmmm. I think I'm gonna get flammed for this but I find Arnold Schwarzenegger to be quite a fascinating person. Now before you all throw rocks at me hear me out, he in my mind embodies the american way/spirit/idea more than anything, which together with his impressive achievements makes him fascinating as to how an immigrant can come to the USA and be extremely succesfull.(I dont really know/care about his politics, but I think I would disagree with a lot of his politics though)

Sidenote: I also wanted to present someone else than the usual suspects: jesus, ghandi and churchill, and someone who is still alive

I don't think anybody should be criticized for their choice of who they would like to meet. One opinion is no better or worse than another. I think Arnold would be a very interesting and entertaining person to talk with. I remember a conversation between two political analysts on CNN when he was running for governor. One said that it was ridiculous for Arnold to think he had a chance. The other pointed out that here is a guy who at the age of 17 said, "I want to be Mr. Universe," and he did it. Then he said, "I want to become the biggest box office draw in Hollywood," even though at the time he spoke little English and was virtually unknown. And he did it. Then the annalist asked do you really think it is impossible for him to become governor of California?

 

[SpiritWolf]

Ludwig van Beethoven: Musical revolutionary, and eternal inspiration. Here is man who took on destiny, and won! His fifth symphony epitomizes his life so well, from his eternal struggle against fate to his ultimate triumph over adversity. And despite all of the tragedies of his life, from an abusive childhood, to a failed love life, to deafness as a musician, Beethoven still wrote of all men becoming brothers; he composed knowing that he would never hear his own creations. And in the end, Beethoven was celebrated more than kings.