Which religion should I add?

[MRM]

I understand why Firaxis watered down the religions, though. No one wants a fatwa on their heads.

If they have added only ancient religions, that wouldn't be a problem . This would be a way to give different religions different traits without annoying. Egypt polytheism could get a bonus in building ( because they build a lot monuments ) , norse would get an ExP Bonus for units ( valhalla ) alternativ less unhappy people in case of war , roman polytheism may get a bonus for workers ( because they had a good road system ) or one bonus movementpoint on roads , and greek polytheist , well, maybe they can adapt representation already in the ancient are ( athens democraty ) ?

I would suggest either splitting Christianity into Catholic and Orthodox or splitting Islam into Sunni and Shiite.

IMO that different branches of christianity and islam are not different religions, that are different interpretations of the same religion. And worse, for me it would be boring to handle with diffenent versions of christanity, i want different religions.( it would be only suitable for a 30 years war scenario or so )

 

[davbenbak]

I would like it better if the religions were more general like paganism, polytheism, montheism, transiendentalism, atheism instead of specific. I'm sure that what the creators of Civ had in mind was to show the progression of thought through time but I'm afraid some people will want to think of religions as somehow superior to others because they are linked to tech discoveries. It's easy to see just how pasionate people can be (about subjects other than game play) by reading some of the posts in this thread.

I also wish there was a better representation of fundamentalism as an aspect of religion. I know there is a theocracy civic but I wish it had some negative scientific repercussions. I really didn't like the fact that the fanatic unit given by fundamentalism in previous Civ games was a robed figure with a torch. It had a certain middle eastern/ Islamic connotation. I assure you fundamentalists in any religion (including Christianity) can be pretty scary.

Just my thoughts concerning game play issues. Hope this doesn't cause a flame war in your thread.

 

[An Nord Draoi]

But in Civ4 a religion doesn't have to represent one particular religion, but it could be used to represent an entire religion group or type of belief system.

Yes, and it does this. However, we are talking about two different orders of words here. Polytheism is a descriptive term applied to a *type* of religious belief, like monotheism, dualism, pantheism, and so on. It is not in the same order as a word that describes a particular *variety* within a type.

As an example, 'Lutheran' would describe a sect within a larger religious group (Christianity). Lutherans have many of the same core beliefs as other sects within that group along with the beliefs that differentiate them from the other sects. All of 'em have something to do with a particular religious leader, stem from a particular original set of religious ideas, et cetera.

The same thing cannot be applied to polytheistic faiths since they do not necessarily have a common origin and/or a common founder/religious leader/prophet/whatever, nor even a core set of beliefs. 'Polytheism' describes a type of belief, not an actual set of beliefs, so it does not work in Civ IV game terms. See what I mean? In this word hierarchy, polytheism, monotheism, and the rest of that kind are on a level sitting above actual religious groups. To have a polytheist faith within Civ IV would be nearly impossible as a result, especially when one considers the nature of each example of such throughout history and the ranges of beliefs that are found even within each culture group that held with a particular form of polytheism.

Why should the The Great PolyGodiNess adopted by Egypt necessarily be the exact same as the one worshipped by the Romans, even if it shares the same name in the game? Civ4 religions don't have named gods, rituals, holy people or specific buildings, so the same religion can well be used to describe various religions of the same type.

Correct, as far as you go with it. See above, though. Polytheism is a type of faith, not a faith system or a faith in itself.

After all, the game doesn't include the various different types of Christianity either.

See above.

-An Nord Draoi

 

[Youri]

I can see the point that you want more religions in the game, but as it stands right now the average game only has 3 religions with a decent amount of followers.

In addition to adding religions, I'd like religion to have a random chance of being founded by anyone, rather than the first person to discover a tech (that should just give you an increased chance instead).

 

[Hrafnkell]

While I think that the religions are a good addition, they are too generic in actual effect. I think each religion should provide at least one unique benefit or unit (e.g. Confucianism provides additional research, Judaism adds trade route, Christianity supplies Crusader, Islam allows Assassins.) That would give you a reason to switch from one to another, besides the number of cities in your Civ that have a religion, or diplomatic relations.

Agreed. Putting religions into the game was a nice touch, because they are a force in history but once having had the idea, they didn't know what to do with it.

I understand why Firaxis watered down the religions, though. No one wants a fatwa on their heads.

Wimps

 

[Corvex]

How about Manichaeanism? I realize that it's considered extinct now, but it was a major influence in the area between Byzantium and China for about a thousand years (and yes, for the record it was a religion in its own right, not just a heresy of Christianity). There are probably much better choices available, but I've recently read the confessions of Saint Augustine and I figured I might as well suggest it.

 

[MRM]

I can see the point that you want more religions in the game, but as it stands right now the average game only has 3 religions with a decent amount of followers.

In addition to adding religions, I'd like religion to have a random chance of being founded by anyone, rather than the first person to discover a tech (that should just give you an increased chance instead).

Abbamouse wanted to exchange one religion with another, so that would not increase the number of religions.

And on the other hand, if we add more religions, they don't have to be all in the gmae at the same time, it could work similar like the civ. You can play with 6 Civs out of 18, so maybe we can play with 4 religions out of 10 ? , 20? in an actuall game ...

 

[An Nord Draoi]

I would like it better if the religions were more general like paganism, polytheism, montheism, transiendentalism, atheism instead of specific.

Too difficult to translate into the game mechanisms. See my post above on this topic.

I'm sure that what the creators of Civ had in mind was to show the progression of thought through time

Yep. However, the way the game shows progress in technology and ideas has been slanted since at least Civ III toward secular humanism and monotheistic faith systems. The entire game series implies that a people moving from a pagan/animistic form of religious beliefs to a monotheistic form, and then to replacing religious faith with science as the 'new faith' is the ideal way to go, when in fact there are some places in the world that never did it that way and ended up just fine. (India being the most obvious example). This has annoyed many modern polytheists who play the game, but we still love the game.

but I'm afraid some people will want to think of religions as somehow superior to others because they are linked to tech discoveries.

True thought, that.

I also wish there was a better representation of fundamentalism as an aspect of religion.

Agreed.

I know there is a theocracy civic but I wish it had some negative scientific repercussions.

The reason why it does not may be because not all religions necessarily hold dogmatic and/or inherent biases against scientific progress. That sort of hostility happens on a case-by-case basis depending on which form of religious beliefs you happen to be considering. Sid is reportedly rather well-read in history, and he has a good team, so it seems reasonable that they are aware of this and made their decisions accordingly regarding game play.

I really didn't like the fact that the fanatic unit given by fundamentalism in previous Civ games was a robed figure with a torch. It had a certain middle eastern/ Islamic connotation.

Agreed. As mentioned, the game does hold some inherent biases, and that is one of them: a bias toward Western / European visual symbols and modes of thinking.

I assure you fundamentalists in any religion (including Christianity) can be pretty scary.

Extreme adherence to dogma or the words of a particular prophet tends to narrow the mind into uncomfortable cone-shaped points. Again, agreed.

-An Nord Draoi

 

[Hrafnkell]

Originally Posted by Exel
After all, the game doesn't include the various different types of Christianity either.

Good thing! There would not be room for any other religions. There are more types of Christianity than I have fingers and toes.

 

[An Nord Draoi]

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[An Nord Draoi]

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[An Nord Draoi]

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[Leonel]

@ Leonel
Re atheism, could believing in nothing be considered a "belief system"? Religions are manifestations of belief in something; atheism would be nothing mroe than its absence and thus most properly represented by being absent from the game.

Well YEAH atheism could be considered a belief system because they supposedly don't believe in any higher being. The keyword, I think, is believe. Or you could even go as far as calling it a thought system as atheisms may insist that they KNOW that there isn't anything higher to believe in, much like theists insist that they KNOW that there is something higher to believe in. It's like calling bald a hairstyle yeah but whether bald or with hair, it all takes place on the same skull. So I think instead of calling it 'religions,' call it 'belief systems' because atheists and theists believe in what they know.

 

[Thuloid]

Consider a modern, atheistic religious movement--Marxism (in its more extreme forms). It has been the faith of choice for several large states/empires, states which notably excluded any other possible faith (they were theocratic). Often its been combined with a cult to the leadership--look at "patriotic" Chinese or Soviet Communist art and tell me its not designed to instill a religious faith in the system.

The tech which provides it is obvious. The building should not be a temple, but a party center of some sort. Instead of missionaries, commissars?

 

[MRM]

Perhaps someone will make a good mod with an excellent Germanic heathen faction/civ in the game...

I try to mod norse religion in - unfortunally "good" is not an exact desription of my progress so far

I have an icon so far ( attachment ) , and managed it to add a religion via XML - but religos screen don't look good with 8 religions, so one has to be removed ( but I think each has to decide which religion to remove on his own )

any suggestions ? Good Icon or not ? ( It's Thors hammer, just took the picture of a medallion )
Problem so far - the icon don't appear on the city in the main screen ( only in menues so far )

and of course the movie - heck no idea what to take as a movie or how to create one ...

And sound ? Hm - Wagners ride of the valkyries maybe ( or too pathetic ? )

so help is welcomed

 

[abbamouse]

Comments on everyone's comments:

1. I hadn't thought of Norse polytheism. I don't plan to add it myself, but I look forward to seeing it in others' mods.

2. Yes, religions should have different effects. That my realistic religions mod, and this is part of it. There's a separate thread on it right now, but I'll start a new one once I have a beta ready (probably this week -- I'm working on advantages/disadvantages for Taoism and Zoroastrianism).

3. So far, I'm using Zoroastrianism as the new religion, because it seems to have the most votes and artwork is already available in the Greek World mod. But I'm not wedded to it. Actually, one fun thing for another mod would be to replace all 7 faiths with historical ones that were big at one point but have since dwindled to few followers. I doubt passions would run as high on that topic. No one slaughters in the name of Zeus anymore (and boy, does he thirst for Etruscan blood...yeah, I made that up).

4. Atheism is more or less available as a civic (free religion) and as a state religion (NONE). Now maybe there should be some sort of building that only gives a benefit if there is no state religion. I'm not really sure what that would be, though. It's not as if we don't have scientists, banks, and entertainment here in the US, and pretty much all the surveys show Americans are quite religious. We have freedom of religion, but most Americans aren't atheists. Any suggestions here?

5. Manichaeism (sp?) -- I always thought this was a syncretic religion taking elements from Christianity and Zoroastrianism. But then again my sole exposure to it comes from reading an article about Tolkien's work embracing a Boethian rather than Manichaean view of evil

 

[Corvex]

5. Manichaeism (sp?) -- I always thought this was a syncretic religion taking elements from Christianity and Zoroastrianism. But then again my sole exposure to it comes from reading an article about Tolkien's work embracing a Boethian rather than Manichaean view of evil

Actually, I understand that it was supposed to be a reconciliation of every religion then known (around the third century), also incorporating elements of Paganism, Buddhism and Hinduism, but the result was a more-or-less unique religion (bearing the strongest resemblance to Zoroasterianism) with its own prophets and distinct theology.

 

[LittleRedPoint]

Ha ha, if you choose polytheism, then you shuld be able build several types of temples and shirnes what gives diferent bonuses. Greek and Roman anchent religion had many Gods (Athena, Ares, Zeus, Aphrodite etc). It would be great to have this bonuses by religion. That is big field to develop in this game.

But if you should choose monotheism, then you can build certain types of buildings like Abey, Church, Cathedral.

I like the idea of having war god temple which works like barrack...

 

[MRM]

Ha ha, if you choose polytheism, then you shuld be able build several types of temples and shirnes what gives diferent bonuses. Greek and Roman anchent religion had many Gods (Athena, Ares, Zeus, Aphrodite etc). It would be great to have this bonuses by religion. That is big field to develop in this game.

But if you should choose monotheism, then you can build certain types of buildings like Abey, Church, Cathedral.

I like the idea of having war god temple which works like barrack...

Are you volunteer in skin modding ?

Yep the idea would be cool for polytheistic religions, having temples for different gods with different effects - but this would be really hard work, I guess. At least so far I' am happy if I manage it to mod one new religion in. But I'am only modding newbe anyway, so someone else maybe successful in doing that ...

 

[Leonel]

4. Atheism is more or less available as a civic (free religion) and as a state religion (NONE). Now maybe there should be some sort of building that only gives a benefit if there is no state religion. I'm not really sure what that would be, though. It's not as if we don't have scientists, banks, and entertainment here in the US, and pretty much all the surveys show Americans are quite religious. We have freedom of religion, but most Americans aren't atheists. Any suggestions here?

Ah yes I see your point there. How about the University that gives a benefit if there is no state religion? Universities are pretty much the crib of free thinking. Perhaps +25% Trade and Science but -50% war weeriness.

But yeah I guess atheism wouldn't be a good "religion" to put in. But how about Sikhism? It supposedly has 23 million followers around the world, more than Judaism.

From Major Religions Ranked By Size at http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_sikh.html
The Sikh homeland is the Punjab, in India, where today Sikhs make up approximately 61% of the population. This is the only place where Sikhs are in the majority. Sikhs have emigrated to countries all over the world - especially to English-speaking and East Asian nations. In doing so they have retained, to an unusually high degree, their distinctive cultural and religious identity.
Sikhs are not ubiquitious worldwide in the way that adherents of larger world religions are, and they remain primarily an ethnic religion. But they can be found in many international cities and have become an especially strong religious presence in the United Kingdom and Canada.