Which religion should I add?

[abbamouse]

Yep, after I posted the poll I thought "D'oh! I missed the Sikhs!" I had actually looked at adherents.com before making the poll.

As for Judaism, it has had a pretty strong historical influence for the numebr of adherents it has. I don't think that its influence has been as great as Christianity or Islam (although it did influence both of these faiths, of course) but I'd say it's had a more lasting impact than Zoroastrianism or Sikhism. The diaspora really magnified its cultural influence; just look at how widespread anti-Semitism is and you see that people all over the world who aren't Jews still have strong opinions about Judaism. And of course modern Israel has dramatically altered the politics of the Middle East. Think about it this way:

1. How different would the world be today if Judaism had never existed? Here's a quick (possibly incorrect) vision of such a world: No Christianity, a different form of Islam, no engine for investment or economic activity in medieval Europe (meaning less European expansion throughout the world), no diaspora which means no Jewish communities to be scapegoated --> no Holocaust, no modern Israel as a source of friction between other people in the Middle East and the West, etc.

2. How different would the world be if Taoism or Sikhism or Zoroastrianism never existed? I don't know the answer, but I'd be hard pressed to tell a credible story that ends in anything close to the degree of historical change triggered by the emergence of Judaism way back when.

So that's why I kept Judaism, despite its small number of adherents. Significant parts of world history and politics just don't make sense without it.

 

[Hrafnkell]

@abbamouse

Actually, it could be argued that without Zoroastrianism and its influences on Judaism, there would have been no Judaism (as we know it) and consequently, no Christianity either, as Christianity owes as much (and arguably more) to Zoroastrianism, Mithraism and Hellenstic religion and philosophy as it does to Judaism. On that basis alone, I would substitute Zoroastrianism for Judaism.

 

[Thuloid]

@abbamouse

Actually, it could be argued that without Zoroastrianism and its influences on Judaism, there would have been no Judaism (as we know it) and consequently, no Christianity either, as Christianity owes as much (and arguably more) to Zoroastrianism, Mithraism and Hellenstic religion and philosophy as it does to Judaism. On that basis alone, I would substitute Zoroastrianism for Judaism.

I think that's overstated. There's likely Zoroastrian influence, but all the core concepts of Christianity are characteristically Jewish--the ideas of law and covenant, the theology of history, the resurrection of the dead, the idea of a day of judgment, the concepts of sin and atonement, the role of the temple (in Christianity relocated into Jesus himself), the ideas of kingship and the Messiah--and not too much of later Judaism is much dependent on Zoroastrianism (though there are also, I would argue, plenty of Hellenistic traces in modern Orthodox Judaism). You see possible Zoroastrian influence in the more strongly dualistic language (especially light/dark stuff, though even this is very much present in the pre-exilic prophets) of post-exilic Judaism and Christianity, and probably in the more pronounced role played by Satan (though the influence of older thought on such matters isn't by any stretch absent). On the other hand, significant Jewish influence on Zoroastrian belief can't be ruled out, either. Hellenistic thought is important to Patristic Christian thought, but arguably not all that significant for the New Testament (some rhetorical flourishes and bits of aside), except as an environment to react within.

 

[Ranbir]

2. How different would the world be if Taoism or Sikhism or Zoroastrianism never existed? I don't know the answer, but I'd be hard pressed to tell a credible story that ends in anything close to the degree of historical change triggered by the emergence of Judaism way back when.

India would have most likely been converted to Islam during the Moghul rule. Also wouldn't created the strongest state in India, which the British Empire were required to not fight until Ranjit Singh died and the political situation could have been taken advantage of. Not to mention the Empire media and historians comparing Hari Singh Nalwa as the greatest general ever!

Really, it should be in. If you replace it with Tao, then you still have the 7th slot free. Please put Sikhi in. *whimper*

 

[jddunn]

This is kind of out of left field, but how about some later-game religions? People suggested splitting Christianty or Islam, which are also good potential ideas, but how about something even later, in the modern era? Evangelical Christianity, with accompanying MegaChurch improvement? Or maybe Mormonism, with commercial benefits of some sort? Or New Age wackiness of some variety... UFO Cults, Scientology, Cargo Cults, Secret Societies, Consumerism-as-religion, etc. There is all kindsa interesting weird stuff that could be tied well into other aspects of the game, and maybe make the endgame a bit more entertaining and flexible.

 

[Thuloid]

Well, I mentioned Marxism as a modern religion, and I wasn't kidding. The Soviet Union looks to me like a theocratic state without a god--if it weren't, then other religions wouldn't have been banned there. You only ban competition, and only a religion could see other religions as competition. The impersonal force of history replaces God in Marxist thought--the view of the proletarian revolution, the end of the historical dialectic and emergence of a true communist society is obviously an eschatological belief. It's revealing that the structure of Marxism is Hegelian, and Hegel's philosophy of history was closely related to his Lutheranism.

As to more recent than that, Mormonism is a Christian heresy--I don't mean that pejoratively, but it stands outside what has historically been Christian orthodoxy. Not unlike Rastafarianism in that respect. I'm not sure either of these are good candidates, though. Evangelical Christianity just isn't outside historical Christian norms enough to be considered separately (unless we really want to break things down finely). The UFO cults are very new, but quite real. Scientology is a fairly interesting variant of these, but my favorite are the Raelians. Most neo-pagan worship is so decentralized as to be hard to categorize as one religion--same with a lot of New Age stuff. If we wanted to just be silly, make up some fusion of radical environmentalism with New Age or neo-pagan belief.

Actually, I think neo-paganism of some kind deserves a mention. Not only is it increasingly popular, but a particularly dark variant had a brief foothold in the official ideology of a 20th century nation state. There's really not much of anything in common between Wiccan and Nazi mythologies, of course. It would be an absurdly broad category. But maybe fun to play around with.

 

[mikh07]

Scientology. Lol.

jedi and norse religion would be cool though

 

[MRM]

Well, I mentioned Marxism as a modern religion, and I wasn't kidding. The Soviet Union looks to me like a theocratic state without a god--if it weren't, then other religions wouldn't have been banned there. You only ban competition, and only a religion could see other religions as competition. The impersonal force of history replaces God in Marxist thought--the view of the proletarian revolution, the end of the historical dialectic and emergence of a true communist society is obviously an eschatological belief. It's revealing that the structure of Marxism is Hegelian, and Hegel's philosophy of history was closely related to his Lutheranism.

As to more recent than that, Mormonism is a Christian heresy--I don't mean that pejoratively, but it stands outside what has historically been Christian orthodoxy. Not unlike Rastafarianism in that respect. I'm not sure either of these are good candidates, though. Evangelical Christianity just isn't outside historical Christian norms enough to be considered separately (unless we really want to break things down finely). The UFO cults are very new, but quite real. Scientology is a fairly interesting variant of these, but my favorite are the Raelians. Most neo-pagan worship is so decentralized as to be hard to categorize as one religion--same with a lot of New Age stuff. If we wanted to just be silly, make up some fusion of radical environmentalism with New Age or neo-pagan belief.

Actually, I think neo-paganism of some kind deserves a mention. Not only is it increasingly popular, but a particularly dark variant had a brief foothold in the official ideology of a 20th century nation state. There's really not much of anything in common between Wiccan and Nazi mythologies, of course. It would be an absurdly broad category. But maybe fun to play around with.

Well I have a problem with adding 20th century religions. Simple reason, game mechanics. Even Taoism has hard times to spread in my games, because it often came to late, if you add a religion coming with communism or environmentalism - well i doubt you will have a benifit from this in the game ( unless you make a 20th century scenario maybe )

And to the debate whether Judaism is a world religion, well I have the idea of adding a "national religion" ( unfortunally no idea how to implement this ). That would be a religion, that is unique for a civ right at the start, you can build temples, declare this to your state religion, but you can never spread it to other civs ( and therefore have the disadvantage of having hard times to find allies or finding someone who wants to trade techs, to balance this maybe more benefit from temples ) . IMO Judaism would fit better in this category, since it never really spead ( or only spread with the people who take it with them ) Same could be said about Hinduism I guess, but they have at least some 100 Mio supporters ...

 

[Martinus]

Zoroastrianism or Mithraism.

Ideally, it would be cool if someone could make a mod where a religion founded would be chosen randomly from a pool of similar "level" religions (e.g. when you discovered Monotheism you could found Judaism or Zoroastrianism, both being "ancient monotheisms", while when you discovered Theology you could found Christianity, Manicheism or Mithraism - all "classical monotheisms"). This way the game would follow the "remake the history" theme more closely.

 

[Thuloid]

One quibble, Martinus--To the best of my knowledge, there's not much evidence to suggest that Mithraism was actually monotheistic. In fact, there's a bit (just interpretation of iconography, but that's most of what we have on the matter) to suggest that it wasn't, even though it may have come out of Zoroastrianism to some extent (more like a combination of a Zoroastrian culture and religious background with local polytheism). Certainly, theology wouldn't be the right tech (except for timing-wise)--Mithraism doesn't seem to have been big on theology at all.

 

[Tabris]

In my opinion it's possible to consider religions to be just doutrines that englobe more than one religion, actually i was going to use it in future AARs but i'm posting it because maybe it can influence you in your choosing. In my opinion been the sikhs so largei n numbers and been their religion so different from the presented in the game it could be a good idea.

My ideia is mostly like it, note that i know very little about taoism and confuncionism and probably there's something wrong about what i say about those religions, sorry if there's something wrong.

And Zoroastrism is not the only influence of judaism, there was in the Egypt a Pharaot named Akenaton which changed the state religion for a monotheistic beleave in a god called Atom, which was the sun god, there are many influences of this beleave in judaism, there are even some prays from that religion that made it into the Torah and the bible.

- No religion = "Animism/Primal Paganism" - Unorganized religion, many deities but almost no link bettewen then and there's no "leader god" or a united pantheon.
Examples: Many animist beleaves

- Buddhism = "Ascensionism" - Beleave in transcedence to another state of existence by following of philosophical teaching and/or some mystical teachings
Examples: Buddhism, many ascetic religions, many magical traditions

- Hinduism = "Sincretic Paganism" - Many gods but the religion has some common beleaves, maybe there's a united pantheon as a orgnaizations or one or more rulers of gods
Examples: Hinduism, greek pantheonism, nordic pantheonism (The legend of Ragnarok speaks about a supreme god who reshapes the world after its destruction), those neo-paganists who are not ascensionists (most of them beleave in all gods and aspects of only one)

- Judaism = "Early monotheism" - Only one god, but some influences of paganism, sometimes some kind of magical tradition too, not focused in a evangelistic ideas (Trying to spreand the religion around the world), may want to spread the religion but don't see those who don't follow the faith as rivals.
Examples: Judaism, zoroastrism, many monotheistic beleaves.

- Taoism = "Popular philosofical" - philosofical beleave, some times rational, which focus on the people don't seen differences of castes, classes and etc, Not necessarily agaisnt the elites, maybe even include then but is basically religion which talks about the masses using rationalism (or some aproximation of it), and is based in philosophy instead of in something mystical or divine (but it may still exist in the religion).
Examples: Taoism, north korean great leaders workship.

- Confuncionism = "Elitist philosofical" - As popular philosofical, but suggests people to serfdom of the superior, maybe intelectual, monetary or born in a superior caste, most of the times focused in oblications of the people.
Examples: confuncionism

- Christianism = "Evangelical monotheism" - Beleaves in a god and beleaves that there's no salvation by other means except worshipping him, may use agressive ways to spread faith or not, maybe beleave in saints or other kind of "minor guiders to the path of the god".
Examples: Christianism, mitraism

- Islamism = "Late monotheism" - as early monotheism, but don't have any mainstream mystical tradition or secret lore, maybe be evangelistic or not, but tends to spread the message only to those who are close to then, may even beleave that other religions have diverged from the path (as islamism see jews and cristians) but beleaves it not to be the only true religion.
Examples: Islamism, Tenrikyo.

Sorry if my little knowledge about religion may offend somebody saying something that's not actually true but i beleave that after reading it you all will got my idea.

 

[abbamouse]

Tabris -- I don't think you wrote anything offensive, but I don't understand some of the things you wrote. I assume English isn't your native language and I'm sure you speak English better than I speak your language Could you please explain what you wrote about Taoism? You have something about North Korea there, but that seems more relevant to a discussion of Juche than Taoism.

 

[Anima Croatorum]

Why no Cthulhu cult?

 

[abbamouse]

Anima -- I like how you think. It's be fun to do some "constructed" faiths and make them "real" in the game world, ie something really is lurking under the ocean...

 

[Tabris]

You are right, and i wrote everything very quickly so there are a lot of typos, i'm going to edit it and try to make it better.

 

[SoCalian]

don't worry Tabris, you'll get the hang of english quickly enough if you continue to hang around these boards.

 

[Asbjorn]

It would be great if Asatru was added.

Is it possible to add multiple ones? - so that the original religions for each civ were there? ie Greek Poly for Greece, Asatru for Germany, Egyptian poly for Egypt.

 

[Panda]

A Cthulhu cult and Satanism, please

 

[Anima Croatorum]

Pls do not mix Cthulhu with satanism. GREAT CTHULHU is not evil, he is beyond good, evil or anything a sane mortal mind might ever grasp.

 

[Plankhead]

I think that the more religions we have, the better. Although it seems like the religious game system still doesn't even work all that well with 7 right now (how many of you have actually managed to get people to convert to Islam?), so I think the system needs a big overhaul. Of course, people are doing that.

I'd do Zoroastrianism myself, since it was technically the earliest monotheistic religion. Of course there are a lot of people in the world who say that Confucianism is their religion, so I'd actualyl leave it in.