Which starting techs would you prefer? 30 fractal starts inside.

[BornInCantaloup]

Sometimes, this is true, but work boat first as a competitive or optimal build is not uncommon. Take start #3 for example. By working the grassland/hill/forest and plains/hill/forest once the borders expand, you have the work boat complete in 9 turns, the fish improved on turn 10, and a worker built on turn 20 if you queue it next (normal speed). Your starting worker is delayed by five turns, but you already have a food bonus improved, five food stored up from working the grassland hill for 5 turns, and have one less workboat to build later on.

Ditto for start 13 and 20. Workboat first isn't as strong here (more so with 20), since your starting worker is delayed six turns, and clams produce less food, but it's still a strong build order, especially since the coastal tiles give a commerce boast to help research more worker techs.

Fair enough You definitely gain valuable commerce starting with a workboat. Probably 30 commerce or so. You also save forests for later.
I didn't calculate timings but blindly asserted my thoughts... Plus, I'm not a high level player.

Going "Worker, Worker, Workboat, grow to 2, Settler" looks strong to me when there's a lot of forests, though. It gets stronger with the Expansive or Imp. trait, and stronger again if you want early barracks. Also stronger with copper in the BFC, but that is unlikely with many forests.
In comparison, the workboat first start cannot get stronger, no matter your luck or the settings.

However, "Worker, Worker, Workboat, grow to 2, Settler" may not be safe on higher difficulties. Dunno.
Still, I wonder by what kind of margin workboat first is superior

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Double post. Sorry.

 

[Fleme]

100 voters, out of which 87 voted for Agriculture and 84 for Mining. Pretty decisive : )

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

It's incredibly rare that a capital has few forests and a grain to farm. Unless I am Egypt, I'd rather Agri/Mining over Agri/Wheel. Copper, Slavery, Chops are better.

Uh... more often than not, I have one of the farmable food resources (rice, wheat, corn) within my capital's BFC and if not one of those, then cow, pig, or sheep (which makes the early AH/horse/chariot gamble more worth it).

While the worker farms and hooks up the resource, the determination for whether or not to shoot immediately to AH, Pottery, or to just go Mining->BW can be made as determined by the immediate surroundings (IE second city food supply requirements). Often, if there is only more farmable resources to be had in the immediate surroundings, I'll just head straight up mining/BW line. Remember, those workers can build roads towards possible second city cites (after the 1st warrior is built) and put roads down on other high yield tiles.

The ability to go straight to pottery is another boon of having Agri & Wheel. With a lot of expansion room and riverside heavy capital, early cottages to support REX isn't bad. It also makes a CS/bureaucracy beeline attractive.

Most of this is all situational, though. Sometimes, I only see 3 forests in my capital fat cross. Sometimes, I start with Agriculture/mining and have access to no hills, no farmable resources, and a coastal seafood start. Sometimes, you start with fishing/agriculture, and you only have cows/pigs in the fat cross. It's all situational, so, really, the best starting techs rely heavily on the situation presented with the map.

But since The Wheel and Agriculture are also the most expensive worker techs, I maintain that I prefer to start with those. It's annoying to discover early copper 6 tiles away no where near a river and suddenly remember that you have to shirk back to get "The Wheel" before chopping/whipping your beautiful axeman stack. Not to mention having to delay Writing or Pottery as your economic crutch technologies. Something is going to have to provide research/support gold while you are conquering with your (slightly delayed) axeman stack.

 

[shyuhe]

100 voters, out of which 87 voted for Agriculture and 84 for Mining. Pretty decisive : )

Except as someone pointed out earlier, agri/mining belongs to one of the crappiest civs in the game

 

[azzaman333]

Uh... more often than not, I have one of the farmable food resources (rice, wheat, corn) within my capital's BFC and if not one of those, then cow, pig, or sheep (which makes the early AH/horse/chariot gamble more worth it).

While the worker farms and hooks up the resource, the determination for whether or not to shoot immediately to AH, Pottery, or to just go Mining->BW can be made as determined by the immediate surroundings (IE second city food supply requirements). Often, if there is only more farmable resources to be had in the immediate surroundings, I'll just head straight up mining/BW line. Remember, those workers can build roads towards possible second city cites (after the 1st warrior is built) and put roads down on other high yield tiles.

The ability to go straight to pottery is another boon of having Agri & Wheel. With a lot of expansion room and riverside heavy capital, early cottages to support REX isn't bad. It also makes a CS/bureaucracy beeline attractive.

Most of this is all situational, though. Sometimes, I only see 3 forests in my capital fat cross. Sometimes, I start with Agriculture/mining and have access to no hills, no farmable resources, and a coastal seafood start. Sometimes, you start with fishing/agriculture, and you only have cows/pigs in the fat cross. It's all situational, so, really, the best starting techs rely heavily on the situation presented with the map.

But since The Wheel and Agriculture are also the most expensive worker techs, I maintain that I prefer to start with those. It's annoying to discover early copper 6 tiles away no where near a river and suddenly remember that you have to shirk back to get "The Wheel" before chopping/whipping your beautiful axeman stack. Not to mention having to delay Writing or Pottery as your economic crutch technologies. Something is going to have to provide research/support gold while you are conquering with your (slightly delayed) axeman stack.

Whilst the wheel is a very important tech, it is extremely rare that I want or need it before I've learnt Bronze Working. Sure, it's annoying to find out that you need the wheel to connect your copper, but knowing where it is early can be the difference between getting a settler there or the AI beating you. It also lets you whip the settler out to further hasten your bid to get the copper. Then you can start working on your economic techs like wheel, pottery, writing.

 

[Emperor Peter]

1 - Ag/Hun or Ag/Min
2 - Ag/Min
3 - Fish/Min
4 - Ag/Min
5 - Ag/Min
6 - Ag/Min
7 - Fish/Ag
8 - Ag/Min
9 - Ag/Hun
10 - Ag/Min
11 - Ag/Min
12 - Ag/Hun
13 - Fish/Min
14 - Fish/Ag
15 - Ag/Min
16 - Ag/Min or Ag/Hun
17 - Ag/Hun
18 - Fish/Min or Ag/Min
19 - Ag/Min
20 - Fish/Min
21 - Ag/Min
22 - Ag/Min
23 - Ag/Min
24 - Ag/Min
25 - Ag/Min
26 - Ag/Min
27 - Ag/Min
28 - Fish/Min
29 - Ag/Min
30 - Ag/Min

 

[iggymnrr]

Okay so just for kicks I started a random fractal as Suileman who starts with ag/wheel. The start had lots of forests, gems and wet corn. So far it seems ag/mining might be best. But how soon I am to get the gems online? After worker first I will definitely farm the corn before mining the gems. There's more, the start also had 2 river dyes and now I have the option of teching mining/pottery to cottage the dyes or mining/BW to farm the dyes. Having the wheel gives me options since it will be 20 turns or so before the gems can be addressed. My only point is that the poll goes only so far. The compulsion to build something (worker) to exploit the start means there is time to acquire at least one tech if not two before you can really decide what two starting techs would be optimal for most starts. And, yes, I may yet have to agree that ag/mining might be stronger since it may cope better with seafood starts. (Hard to see how wheel may help there.)

 

[King Pluto]

The compulsion to build something (worker) to exploit the start means there is time to acquire at least one tech if not two before you can really decide what two starting techs would be optimal for most starts.

This is why I prefer Mining to Wheel, though. If I start with Agriculture and the choice is between Mining and The Wheel, that means my next tech choice that wouldn't have been available otherwise is either BW or Pottery. More often than not, BW helps me immediately after getting the Worker out, because I'm much more inclined to chop and whip some Settlers and get mines up then I am to immediately build Cottages to work at the start.

I agree that Wheel is a great option and I'd go as far as saying that I'm never unhappy when starting with it. But I'd rather get BW fast than Pottery fast, or pre-chop than build roads everywhere, in the early game.

 

[iggymnrr]

@ King Pluto
Excellent points. Suileman also has a discount on settlers which makes chopping attractive. And I would probabably tech mining/BW ASAP. But stop and count. How long will it take to build a worker, farm the corn, mine the gems and grow a bit to produce the settler? I figure at worst I may have to start a second farm before chopping comes online. How much did mining at the start really help? Did it at all? I am really only pointing out the flaw in the original poll. It asks about TWO techs. I maintain that the compulsion to build a unit, allowing one or two additional techs to be researched, makes the second tech moot. It really does a person no good until it becomes useable. A better poll would be: what is the most important tech (ONE) to start with? Agriculture! So in the end I am really saying the second tech is essentially oracled/liberalismed in. What would you take for that second tech?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

This is why I prefer Mining to Wheel, though. If I start with Agriculture and the choice is between Mining and The Wheel, that means my next tech choice that wouldn't have been available otherwise is either BW or Pottery. More often than not, BW helps me immediately after getting the Worker out, because I'm much more inclined to chop and whip some Settlers and get mines up then I am to immediately build Cottages to work at the start.

I agree that Wheel is a great option and I'd go as far as saying that I'm never unhappy when starting with it. But I'd rather get BW fast than Pottery fast, or pre-chop than build roads everywhere, in the early game.

I see where you & azzaman are at. Good points all around.

However, I stick to my original point that given the same exact start, you will have all 4: Agriculture, Wheel, Mining, and Bronzeworking first when starting with The Wheel since it is more expensive than mining. IE, by the time the worker pops out, you'll already have mining and be a decent portion finished with BW whereas when starting with Mining, you will not be done with BW when that worker pops and still have to research The Wheel.

Again, map dependent, playstyle dependent, and probably level dependent since you can easily grab a nearby copper spot on Emperor when starting with The Wheel (ie having to self-research Mining->BW).

 

[civvver]

I agree with blitzkreig. I can always finish researching mining by the time my first worker is done, send him to farm some resource while I research bronze working. The wheel is a pain to research early as it costs so many beakers. Also I like having direct access to pottery, I sometimes even research pottery before bronze working depending on how many forests are around and since granaries are essential in my view.

Hunting is also not a bad starting tech but it's situational. Both hunting and agriculture get you to animal husbandry so it just depends on whether you have deer/jumbos nearby or corn/wheat/rice.

 

[iggymnrr]

One thought just crossed my mind. How many people would play any civ if agriculture was the only starting tech?

 

[Silu]

Only of the Agri starting Civs, I'd rather have at least WvO, Hatty, Rami, HC, Mehmed, Darius, Gilga or Shaka only with Agri than either QSH or Mao with Agri/Mining.