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Which starting techs would you prefer? 30 fractal starts inside.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by futurehermit, Mar 6, 2010.

?

In most cases, I think these two starting techs allow the best start

  1. Agriculture

    107 vote(s)
    87.7%
  2. Fishing

    5 vote(s)
    4.1%
  3. Hunting

    7 vote(s)
    5.7%
  4. Mining

    104 vote(s)
    85.2%
  5. Mysticism

    3 vote(s)
    2.5%
  6. Wheel

    16 vote(s)
    13.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Agramon

    Agramon Warlord

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    Mining (and to a certain extent BW) are alway a very early must. While the wheel almost only comes into play when you have to settle your second city or you wanna go early cottages in rare cases. I guess you can compensate the beaker count by some early chopping, don't you think?
     
  2. Silu

    Silu Deity

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    Finland
    For chopping you need trees. Many starts with only like 3 forests got a lot of Mining votes.

    Also, Wheel is often nice when you need to wait for worker techs - say, if you have only livestock and all your hills are forested. Normally this means Worker first is out of the picture but Agri/Wheel could still go Worker first without losing worker turns.
     
  3. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    Agri and Mining is the reason why China doesn't suck, IMO. Being able to tech BW first and still improve your food in most cases is a nice luxury. A lot of starts also come without unforested hills, meaning even when you tech minig, you can't use it before BW. Agreed that Wheel is decent, however.

    Also agreed on your last point.
     
  4. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    5,724
    63 poll votes, but only 7 lists? Come on people :p
     
  5. Mudcrab

    Mudcrab Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    16
    Hunting and Mining.

    Hunting specifically for the scout, with 2 moves, is essential to get the jump on rival civs popping goddie huts, and for scouting around the capital to determine early strategy. If you build a worker straight away, then you are stuck with the one exploring unit until the worker is built. Also, in the first few turns there are no wandering animals, so the scout can safely move through the open.

    Once you have explored the area around the capital, BW, IW, AH will reveal their respective Copper, Iron and Horse strategic resouces, and you can determine where to place your next 2-4 cities in the rush to settle/block rival cities.

    Ag and roads you can research while bulding the worker, along with BW and AH while building the capital to pop 3.
     
  6. Silu

    Silu Deity

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    Finland
    Their techs are their only saving grace. Ultra crap UB, crap UU (flak from CKN fanboys inc... they're way too expensive to use for collateral which is all they're really good for), both leaders have the worst trait in the game...

    There might be worse Civs, but my point was, when thinking about "good starting techs" I automatically thought "good starting tech civs" and China really doesn't have much to say to Egypt, Sumeria or Ottomans (or half a dozen other Civs which have different techs) in that regard :)
     
  7. bobbyboy29

    bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns...

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    Location:
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    Sorry futurehermit, I like your dedication to getting good, accurate and therefore meaningful feedback but... well i'm lazy.
    This is a really interesting thread though, I hope you have some other good ideas like this one.

    Anyway, like most people i usually favour agriculture and mining.
    This is because my top priorities at the start of the game are:
    1)Food
    2)Production (which thanks to the whip can come from food)
    3) Acquiring copper and/or horses for early defense/ attack
    4) Worker productivity (not having idle turns/ making the most of early worker turns)

    So obviously agri satisfies no. 1 best, it is the best food tech and it also leads to AH for more food.

    Mining allows mines for production and leads to bronze working for the biggest production boost in the game (much bigger than AL) through whipping and chopping. It also leads to masonry which is somewhat useful if you have marble or stone nearby.

    BW and AH obviously satisfy number 3.

    And finally when it comes to worker turns, this is why the wheel comes in at a close(ish) 3rd for me. Although once you get BW, your workers always have something to do (chopping or pre-chopping), roads are of vital importance and thus I never complain if I start with the wheel.

    But the above reasons hopefully show you why my (and many others') preferences lie with AG and Mining.

    A good idea would be to actually play out the starts in which there is disagreement over which starting techs would be optimal a few times over with the different combinations of starting techs and comment on how this affected the early game.
     
  8. Shoot the Moon

    Shoot the Moon Playing World in Conflict

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2005
    Messages:
    708
    1) agriculture/mining
    2) agriculture/mining
    3) fishing/mining
    4) agriculture/mining
    5) hunting/mining
    6) agriculture/mining
    7) agriculture/mining (tough one)
    8) agriculture/mining
    9) hunting/mining
    10) agriculture/mining
    11) agriculture/mining
    12) agriculture/mining (not enough food to work the elephants until you have agri anyway)
    13) fishing/mining
    14) agriculture/mining
    15) agriculture/wheel
    16) agriculture/mining
    17) hunting/mining
    18) agriculture/mining
    19) agriculture/mining
    20) fishing/mining
     
  9. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Feb 9, 2010
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    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    I don't really get how these data can inform you in any way.
    Agriculture is the most common tech on the way to AH, Pottery, Writing
    Mining, well... gets you 4 production tiles for your workers/settlers + is on the way to BW.
    --> Agr / Mining provides the most all around start.
    Mining + The Wheel is interesting as well, since it lets you choose your food tech, but it slows your research of BW. Oddly enough, Mali is the only civ with this combo.
    The Wheel + Agriculture is another strong start, just 1 tech away from Pottery. Although Pottery probably shouldn't be the first tech researched.

    Anyways, the starts I'd prefer something else :
    9- Hunting / Mining. Ivory is good enough to work early.
    17- Hunting / Mining. Same applies to deer.


    Coastal starts :
    3- Enough forest to chop to warrant a worker first. Thus Agriculture / Mining would do the job. You'll chop workboats faster, especially without any 3 hammer tile.
    7- More land resources than sea resources. Agr / Mining is better.
    8- No food resources...
    13- You'd better get a worker out first, improve the 2 cows and then chop workboats. Thus Agr / Mining.
    14- Same reasonning.
    18- Again, except you'll be working corn.
    20- And again. Pasture the pig, farm a floodplains and you're good to go.
    --> Essentially, Fishing is almost never a must-have-first tech with a coastal start. Having fishing may induce you into going workboat first which is more often than not inferior to worker first.


    Fancy :
    4- Agriculture / The Wheel could be nice. Research Pottery first and cottage 1-2 floodplains. Though Agr / Mining would probably be better. I suspect building cottages as your first improvements is a mistake.
    15- Also possible.

    Questionable :
    5- There's fur, but also 2 pigs. Early Hunting isn't necessary. Agriculture would be just as good. There's corn around, anyways. Note that Hunting is cheaper to research than Agriculture...


    ps : Opinion given assumes a No Huts setting.
    If there are huts, I'll always want a scout, no matter the surroundings. When there are huts and I start with a warrior, I really don't feel secure, especially on maps like Pangea where the AI can pop them at lightning speed.
     
  10. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    Agriculture and The Wheel

    Why?
    1) Immediate access to pottery (for granaries and early cottages if capital is good for it)
    2) Immediate access to AH (for pasturing pigs/cows/sheep and, of course, revealing horse) with wheel allows for a very fast chariot rush.
    3) They are the 2 most expensive starting techs

    A very close second would be Agriculture/Mining for fast access to Bronzeworking (chopping, whipping, copper/axemen)

    A distant third is Fishing/Mining (ie Rome) but only with a coastal seafood start.
     
  11. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,341
    Sometimes, this is true, but work boat first as a competitive or optimal build is not uncommon. Take start #3 for example. By working the grassland/hill/forest and plains/hill/forest once the borders expand, you have the work boat complete in 9 turns, the fish improved on turn 10, and a worker built on turn 20 if you queue it next (normal speed). Your starting worker is delayed by five turns, but you already have a food bonus improved, five food stored up from working the grassland hill for 5 turns, and have one less workboat to build later on.

    Ditto for start 13 and 20. Workboat first isn't as strong here (more so with 20), since your starting worker is delayed six turns, and clams produce less food, but it's still a strong build order, especially since the coastal tiles give a commerce boast to help research more worker techs.
     
  12. dualmaster

    dualmaster Emperor

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    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    387
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    1.) Ag/Mining
    2.) Ag/Mining
    3.) Fishing/Mining
    4.) Ag/Wheel
    5.) Ag/Hunting
    6.) Ag/Wheel
    7.) Ag/Mining
    8.) Ag/Mining
    9.) Ag/Hunting
    10.) Ag/Mining
    11.) Ag/Mining
    12.) Ag/Hunting
    13.) Ag/Fishing
    14.) Ag/Mining
    15.) Ag/Wheel
    16.) Ag/Mining
    17.) Ag/Hunting
    18.) Ag/Mining
    19.) Ag/Mining
    20.) Ag/Mining
    21.) Ag/Mining + settle 1N
    22.) Ag/Wheel
    23.) Ag/Wheel
    24.) Ag/Mining
    25.) Ag/Mining
    26.) Ag/Mining
    27.) Ag/Mining
    28.) Ag/Fishing
    29.) Ag/Mining
    30.) Ag/Mining
     
  13. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,062
    Location:
    Gone fishing for the summer
    1) agri/mining
    2) agri/mining
    3) fishing/mining
    4) agri/mining
    5) hunting/mining
    6) agri/mining
    7) fishing/mining
    8) agri/mining
    9) agri/hunting
    10) agri/mining
    11) agri/mining
    12) agri/hunting
    13) fishing/agri
    14) fishing/agri
    15) agri/mining
    16) agri/hunting
    17) agri/hunting
    18) agri/fishing
    19) agri/mining
    20) fishing/mining
    21) agri/mining
    22) agri/mining
    23) agri/wheel
    24) mining/wheel
    25) agri/wheel
    26) agri/mining
    27) hunting/agri
    28) agri/mining
    29) agri/mining
    30) agri/wheel
     
  14. Tatran

    Tatran Deity

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    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    4,184
    So, this poll has nothing to do with the starting civ (Russia) ?

    I don't see any purpose for this poll.
    You can't choose your starting location, so you don't know which food tech (Fishing, Agriculture or AH) will be needed.

    On the other hand you can move your settler to a spot which matches with your starting techs.

    In a real worst case scenario you start without Hunting and Agriculture and
    you only have plains cow or plains hill sheep. The rest are forests and no extra commerce.
    (A good reason for me to re-roll.)
     
  15. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

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    It's incredibly rare that a capital has few forests and a grain to farm. Unless I am Egypt, I'd rather Agri/Mining over Agri/Wheel. Copper, Slavery, Chops are better.
     
  16. Daedal

    Daedal Prince

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    My lazy version of the list: mining & agriculture in every start that's not coastal with seafood, in which case mining & fishing. Hunting gets priority over other food techs if there's no seafood or grains and there are other land animals around. Agri/wheel combo gets priority in the special case of a start heavy on flood plains, in which case early cottages are especially nice.

    Hammers are the early priority. Food becomes hammers through slavery and trees become hammers through chopping, so that always makes the food techs and mining early priorities. Early cottages on FP are a nice diversion only because it's a waste of turns to farm FPs and then cottage over the farms since you'll be cottaging the FPs eventually anyway unless you're a cottage-hater.
     
  17. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    I went ag/wheel over ag/mining for the certainty of worker efficiency over the certainty of early slavery. It is also a leg up on uncertain horse and the economy while mining is a leg up on uncertain copper. It's close because trees/hills/seafood become a factor. But even then the worker can do something and mining is cheap.

    Edit: After thinking about this for a bit, I don't think this thread really answers enough questions. Any start will require something to be built (to exploit the start) and somethings that needs to be teched (not time to binary yet.) There will always be initial downtime during the first build(s). It really comes down to worker verus workboat and what 3rd and 4th techs need to be researched. Only after you know this can you go back and consider what two starting techs will be optimal. (Slavery is also interesting but if you don't revolt to it right away ... Seems like seafood starts lend themselves more to early slavery than nonseafood starts.)
     
  18. Monsterzuma

    Monsterzuma the sly one

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    The poll result makes me restore faith in the forum :')
     
  19. StevenJoyce

    StevenJoyce Chieftain

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    May 11, 2004
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    ag+min in all except:
    3. fish+min
    9. ag+hunt
    12. ag+hunt
    17. hunt+min

    I'm surprised that I wanted hunting more often than fishing. I would have guessed that I would want to do workboat first on more of the seafood starts.
     
  20. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    Good observation. But that implies a worker first start and certainly hunting can be researched long before the worker completes and another tech started. That is, hunting does you no immediate good. I'd be willing to consider ag/mining as best all around to cater to more starts, perhaps even ag/fishing to open up another initial build possibility. I'd stick with Ag/wheel for now because I'm stubborn, hate worker downtime and do like horse/cottages. I guess I'd need to be convinced that this would not be an optimal way to cater to seafood starts. (That is, how does a workboat compare to a worker?)
     

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