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Who is the most evil? Most good? etc

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by Grey Fox, Apr 7, 2008.

  1. marioflag

    marioflag History Addict

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    I don't agree with that.As Basium can be seen as the opposite of Hyborem so is assumed to be the most "anti-evil" civ, Elohim can be seen as the opposite of the Sheaim which can be assumed to be less evil only compared to Hyborem.Elohim have the Hallowing of he Elohim which decreases the AC and at least from the lore is the civ which protects the holy places...they can be seen as some sort of guardians of Erebus.They are associated with Pacifism which certainly makes them less prone to fight evil civs than Bannor but as the intro says it seems to be the "most selfless" good civ paired with Mercurians.
    Bannor instead is good becuase it is the bearer of a good ideology and for its fanatical fight against chaos; in the beginning of the mod Bannor had Clan of Embers and Doviello as worst enemies, so their theme is mostly directed against chaos than evil and their ideology is more based on the concept of order than goodwill
     
  2. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    I think the Order of the first three is most likely

    Basium - Came to Erebus just to fight Hyborem
    Capria - Been through hell, hates demons (also better in game for random crusades with the spiritual trait)
    Sabathiel - Angel of Order, leader of the bannor

    For the last three:

    Hyborem - trying to unite Erebus and Agares hell iirc
    Os-gabella - Trying to end the world out of malice and hatred.
    Tebryn - trying to end the world to save himself.

    Everyone else slots in in between.
     
  3. reverend oats

    reverend oats Chieftain

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    I believe Os-Gabella is actually trying to end the world because that is the only way to end her own, immortal, life.
     
  4. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    True....but if she didn't hate her life she wouldn't try to end it :p
     
  5. Sofista

    Sofista card-carrying

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    Thank you! Much appreciated.
    Suggestion: you may wish to add the civics' compassion modifier to your manual.

    1)Alignment differences being given a 5, 0, -5 scale comes in handy with the evaluation of BasePeaceWeight as I describe below. I mean, an explicit "good" or "evil" label should actually matter when trying to calculate a leader's true alignment. Cardith's BasePeace 10 (top of the scale) yields him as much as his being "good", which, to me, makes sense. Symmetrically, Hyborem's 0 (bottom) mirrors his evilness.
    On religion, eh, I'd also take Empyrean over the Order, but it's a personal matter really, and I had to stick to the FFH universe as closely as I could. The XML shows only the Elohim and Varn as having any preference for the Empyrean, by the way, Varn's being the more pronounced. However, it might be interesting to try out different values for religion: would tweaking the formula to, say, Order +2, Empyrean/RoK +1, FoL 0, CoE/OO -1, AV -2 work? (I know you pointed out that CoE is a lesser evil compared to the Overlords, and Empyrean also has been said to represent a more advanced ethic compared with the Runes, but I'd like to stick to their alignment effects, and also those numbers would be quite the nerfing of the religious aspect in the game, to the point that it doesn't request the pairings being further differentiated).

    2) In the XML you mean? Lol, I had to stick to that. All stuff likely to be further modified by the team as they tackle the AI, and yet, if not what I found there, what should I have based on? (Or if you mean my own values, see above).

    Varn and Basium shot higher than the Elohim on my first list because:
    - Varn loves the Empyrean more than them, dislikes the OO more, plus the CoE. He even dislikes the AV more.
    - Basium just hates the AV with every fiber of his. But as you'll read, once other factors come into play he's readily overtaken by the wise ones.

    @Mario: his 'pedia entry clearly states that Basium cares little for people, and I think this should be taken into consideration when discussing his morality.

    And now for my little calculation 1.1, for which I took into consideration BaseAttitude (imported as it was), BasePeaceWeight (since it ranged from 0 to 10, I called 5 a "0" and added/subtracted considering how much a leader detached from it in a direction), AttitudeBadBonus (again, imported as it was), AttitudeCompassionHigh/Low, the latter reversed. Finally I took into consideration a ruler's governing style, that is his/her favorite civic when it had a compassion modifier, and added/subtracted accordingly. And added the results to 1.0

    Example: Cardith, the Erebus Mahatma, has BaseAttitude of 3, BasePeaceWeight 10 (thus, +5), AttitudeBadBonus 1, AttitudeCompassionHigh 4, AttitudeCompassionLow -2 (+2). Plus, his favorite civic is Public Healers, granting him an additional 1. 3+5+1+4+2+1=16, which summed with his 11 from yesterday takes him to 27.

    The list (I added this calculation's points in parenthesis):
    34,5
    Sabathiel
    Capria (+6 both)

    34
    Varn (+8)

    27,5
    Ethne
    Einion (+10 both)

    27
    Cardith (+16)

    22
    Basium (+2)

    14,5
    Garrim
    Beeri (+6 both)

    13,5
    Arturus
    Kandros (+3 both)

    10,5
    Arendel (+3)

    3
    Cassiel (+3)

    2,5
    Amelanchier
    Thessa (unchanged)

    1
    Valledia
    Dain (unchanged)

    -2,5
    Sandalphon (+1)

    -5
    Tasunke
    Rhoanna (-5 both)

    -5,5
    Falamar (-2)

    -9
    Auric (-4)

    -11
    Charadon
    Mahala
    Jonas
    Sheelba (-6 all)

    -14
    Keelyn (-3)

    -15,5
    Flauros (-7)

    -17
    Alexis (-6)

    -22,5
    Hannah (-6)

    -24,5
    Perpentach (-3)

    -29
    Faeryl (-4)

    -32,5
    Os-Gabella (-4)

    -33,5
    Tebryn (-5)

    -37
    Hyborem (-7)

    I also stored MaxWarRand, DogpileWarRand and MakePeaceRand, but didn't use them, because I'm not sure they should be factored here.
     
  6. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

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    I'd say that list looks fairly decent, at the least it can be used to decide on relative positioning on any other list when no easy distinction is available for the person who is deciding on the orders.

    As for the side note: What precisely do you mean by Civics' Compassion Modifiers? Haven't looked into Civics too much as yet, only added in the religious or Civ specific ones thus far.
     
  7. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    They deal with the "you treat your people well" and "you treat your people poorly" diplomatic modifiers. Most civs have a better view of those who treat people well, but the Calabim leaders are the opposite (I think Hyborem is too)
     
  8. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    Kael also mentioned somewhere that Basium almost wiped out the Sidar because of some trivial matter. His twin sister stopped him however. (I'm guessing she is about the only one who can calm him down)
     
  9. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

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    Well, unless it is universally the same modifier (with 1 or 2 exceptions who simply reverse it), it will probably get placed in the Calculations appendix when I finally make one. Could be a bit too bulky otherwise. But I will look into it.
     
  10. Sofista

    Sofista card-carrying

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    For everyone's use, here's the list I made (I have all on an Excel file) of the:

    AttitudeCompassionHigh:

    Spoiler :
    4
    Cardith

    2
    Varn
    Ethne
    Einion

    1
    Sabathiel
    Capria
    Garrim
    Beeri
    Amelanchier
    Arendel
    Thessa
    Cassiel
    Valledia
    Dain

    everyone else is at 0, except the Calabim, as MagisterCultuum said.


    AttitudeCompassionLow:

    Spoiler :
    1
    Alexis
    Flauros (for clarity, this means the worthy pair is happy to hear there are other tyrants on Erebus)

    -1
    Sabathiel
    Capria
    Varn
    Ethne
    Einion
    Garrim
    Beeri

    -2
    Cardith

    Everyone else at 0.
     
  11. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

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  12. Sofista

    Sofista card-carrying

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    Nah, what leaders think of it is a game mechanic falling a bit out of the scope. But a simple "- compassionate/- uncompassionate" label for the relevant civics could do.
     
  13. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

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  14. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The (un/)compassionate civics already modify alignment appropriately in Broader Alignments modmod, although the tags themselves are unrelated.
     
  15. Slvynn

    Slvynn Duke Vector fon Pixel

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    I think Hanah is eviler than Tasunke, And Amelanchier is more evil as he listed now.
     
  16. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    Don't comment on my list, that one is already outdated :p

    EDIT: Updated the list
     
  17. Mewtarthio

    Mewtarthio Chieftain

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    You know, it might be screwing up the readings a little that Auric has -100 to every religion. He's not like that because he's a misotheist: He's like that because he worships/is possessed by Mulcarn (who, granted, is the least evil of the Evil gods, but still is the only guy to ever outright violate the Compact).
     
  18. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Sure he is Misotheistic--towards his rivals. This is probably true of all the gods/angels.
     
  19. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

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  20. Sofista

    Sofista card-carrying

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    Ah, but there are less un/compassionate civics than one may think. Compassionate are only Crusade and Public Healers, uncompassionate Sacrifice the Weak and Fend for Themselves.
     

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