Who is the most evil? Most good? etc

[marioflag]

Well, "apathy is the greatest evil" could be said to apply in that case. The Elohim will offer shelter and whatnot, but don't much go out and proactively counter Evil. Thus they aren't nearly as good as Basium or Varn, who are both quite known to go on a rampage and demolish things which seem even slightly evil. So I would personally see them as more Good than the Elohim, in a FfH kinda way.

EDIT: @Sofista: iBadAttitude is multiplied by iAttitudeBadBonus to decide what the leader thinks of anyone who uses Death or Entropy Mana.

I don't agree with that.As Basium can be seen as the opposite of Hyborem so is assumed to be the most "anti-evil" civ, Elohim can be seen as the opposite of the Sheaim which can be assumed to be less evil only compared to Hyborem.Elohim have the Hallowing of he Elohim which decreases the AC and at least from the lore is the civ which protects the holy places...they can be seen as some sort of guardians of Erebus.They are associated with Pacifism which certainly makes them less prone to fight evil civs than Bannor but as the intro says it seems to be the "most selfless" good civ paired with Mercurians.
Bannor instead is good becuase it is the bearer of a good ideology and for its fanatical fight against chaos; in the beginning of the mod Bannor had Clan of Embers and Doviello as worst enemies, so their theme is mostly directed against chaos than evil and their ideology is more based on the concept of order than goodwill

 

[Ekolite]

I think the Order of the first three is most likely

Basium - Came to Erebus just to fight Hyborem
Capria - Been through hell, hates demons (also better in game for random crusades with the spiritual trait)
Sabathiel - Angel of Order, leader of the bannor

For the last three:

Hyborem - trying to unite Erebus and Agares hell iirc
Os-gabella - Trying to end the world out of malice and hatred.
Tebryn - trying to end the world to save himself.

Everyone else slots in in between.

 

[reverend oats]

I believe Os-Gabella is actually trying to end the world because that is the only way to end her own, immortal, life.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

True....but if she didn't hate her life she wouldn't try to end it

 

[Sofista]

EDIT: @Sofista: iBadAttitude is multiplied by iAttitudeBadBonus to decide what the leader thinks of anyone who uses Death or Entropy Mana.

Thank you! Much appreciated.
Suggestion: you may wish to add the civics' compassion modifier to your manual.

2 big problems with that:

1) I don't buy the connections between the alignment changes and how good the religions actually are being that strong. Off the top of my head I'd certainly call Empyrean more "good" than Order, for instance. And CoE, while kinda evil, is less so that Overlords.

2) The religion weights often don't make a lot of sense.

A list compiled this way gives an okay ballpark but some of the details are off. I mean, Varn and Basium that high? Above the Elohim leaders even?

1)Alignment differences being given a 5, 0, -5 scale comes in handy with the evaluation of BasePeaceWeight as I describe below. I mean, an explicit "good" or "evil" label should actually matter when trying to calculate a leader's true alignment. Cardith's BasePeace 10 (top of the scale) yields him as much as his being "good", which, to me, makes sense. Symmetrically, Hyborem's 0 (bottom) mirrors his evilness.
On religion, eh, I'd also take Empyrean over the Order, but it's a personal matter really, and I had to stick to the FFH universe as closely as I could. The XML shows only the Elohim and Varn as having any preference for the Empyrean, by the way, Varn's being the more pronounced. However, it might be interesting to try out different values for religion: would tweaking the formula to, say, Order +2, Empyrean/RoK +1, FoL 0, CoE/OO -1, AV -2 work? (I know you pointed out that CoE is a lesser evil compared to the Overlords, and Empyrean also has been said to represent a more advanced ethic compared with the Runes, but I'd like to stick to their alignment effects, and also those numbers would be quite the nerfing of the religious aspect in the game, to the point that it doesn't request the pairings being further differentiated).

2) In the XML you mean? Lol, I had to stick to that. All stuff likely to be further modified by the team as they tackle the AI, and yet, if not what I found there, what should I have based on? (Or if you mean my own values, see above).

Varn and Basium shot higher than the Elohim on my first list because:
- Varn loves the Empyrean more than them, dislikes the OO more, plus the CoE. He even dislikes the AV more.
- Basium just hates the AV with every fiber of his. But as you'll read, once other factors come into play he's readily overtaken by the wise ones.

@Mario: his 'pedia entry clearly states that Basium cares little for people, and I think this should be taken into consideration when discussing his morality.

And now for my little calculation 1.1, for which I took into consideration BaseAttitude (imported as it was), BasePeaceWeight (since it ranged from 0 to 10, I called 5 a "0" and added/subtracted considering how much a leader detached from it in a direction), AttitudeBadBonus (again, imported as it was), AttitudeCompassionHigh/Low, the latter reversed. Finally I took into consideration a ruler's governing style, that is his/her favorite civic when it had a compassion modifier, and added/subtracted accordingly. And added the results to 1.0

Example: Cardith, the Erebus Mahatma, has BaseAttitude of 3, BasePeaceWeight 10 (thus, +5), AttitudeBadBonus 1, AttitudeCompassionHigh 4, AttitudeCompassionLow -2 (+2). Plus, his favorite civic is Public Healers, granting him an additional 1. 3+5+1+4+2+1=16, which summed with his 11 from yesterday takes him to 27.

The list (I added this calculation's points in parenthesis):
34,5
Sabathiel
Capria (+6 both)

34
Varn (+8)

27,5
Ethne
Einion (+10 both)

27
Cardith (+16)

22
Basium (+2)

14,5
Garrim
Beeri (+6 both)

13,5
Arturus
Kandros (+3 both)

10,5
Arendel (+3)

3
Cassiel (+3)

2,5
Amelanchier
Thessa (unchanged)

1
Valledia
Dain (unchanged)

-2,5
Sandalphon (+1)

-5
Tasunke
Rhoanna (-5 both)

-5,5
Falamar (-2)

-9
Auric (-4)

-11
Charadon
Mahala
Jonas
Sheelba (-6 all)

-14
Keelyn (-3)

-15,5
Flauros (-7)

-17
Alexis (-6)

-22,5
Hannah (-6)

-24,5
Perpentach (-3)

-29
Faeryl (-4)

-32,5
Os-Gabella (-4)

-33,5
Tebryn (-5)

-37
Hyborem (-7)

I also stored MaxWarRand, DogpileWarRand and MakePeaceRand, but didn't use them, because I'm not sure they should be factored here.

 

[xienwolf]

I'd say that list looks fairly decent, at the least it can be used to decide on relative positioning on any other list when no easy distinction is available for the person who is deciding on the orders.

As for the side note: What precisely do you mean by Civics' Compassion Modifiers? Haven't looked into Civics too much as yet, only added in the religious or Civ specific ones thus far.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

They deal with the "you treat your people well" and "you treat your people poorly" diplomatic modifiers. Most civs have a better view of those who treat people well, but the Calabim leaders are the opposite (I think Hyborem is too)

 

[Grey Fox]

@Mario: his 'pedia entry clearly states that Basium cares little for people, and I think this should be taken into consideration when discussing his morality.

Kael also mentioned somewhere that Basium almost wiped out the Sidar because of some trivial matter. His twin sister stopped him however. (I'm guessing she is about the only one who can calm him down)

 

[xienwolf]

Well, unless it is universally the same modifier (with 1 or 2 exceptions who simply reverse it), it will probably get placed in the Calculations appendix when I finally make one. Could be a bit too bulky otherwise. But I will look into it.

 

[Sofista]

For everyone's use, here's the list I made (I have all on an Excel file) of the:

AttitudeCompassionHigh:

Spoiler :

4
Cardith

2
Varn
Ethne
Einion

1
Sabathiel
Capria
Garrim
Beeri
Amelanchier
Arendel
Thessa
Cassiel
Valledia
Dain

everyone else is at 0, except the Calabim, as MagisterCultuum said.

AttitudeCompassionLow:

Spoiler :

1
Alexis
Flauros (for clarity, this means the worthy pair is happy to hear there are other tyrants on Erebus)

-1
Sabathiel
Capria
Varn
Ethne
Einion
Garrim
Beeri

-2
Cardith

Everyone else at 0.

 

[xienwolf]

Yeah I probably won't include that directly. Can't think of how to fit it in there in a manner which seems clear, but brief.

 

[Sofista]

Nah, what leaders think of it is a game mechanic falling a bit out of the scope. But a simple "- compassionate/- uncompassionate" label for the relevant civics could do.

 

[xienwolf]

Yeah, something like that will probably be in there. Though in truth for most of them it is going to be fairly obvious But it is nice to know that your choices will alter your relationships.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The (un/)compassionate civics already modify alignment appropriately in Broader Alignments modmod, although the tags themselves are unrelated.

 

[Slvynn]

I think Hanah is eviler than Tasunke, And Amelanchier is more evil as he listed now.

 

[Grey Fox]

Don't comment on my list, that one is already outdated

EDIT: Updated the list

 

[Mewtarthio]

You know, it might be screwing up the readings a little that Auric has -100 to every religion. He's not like that because he's a misotheist: He's like that because he worships/is possessed by Mulcarn (who, granted, is the least evil of the Evil gods, but still is the only guy to ever outright violate the Compact).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Sure he is Misotheistic--towards his rivals. This is probably true of all the gods/angels.

 

[xienwolf]

Nah, they'd balance each other out for Auric since he is -100 to EVERY religion, and there are Good + Bad religions that are weighted opposite each other.

 

[Sofista]

Yeah, something like that will probably be in there. Though in truth for most of them it is going to be fairly obvious

Ah, but there are less un/compassionate civics than one may think. Compassionate are only Crusade and Public Healers, uncompassionate Sacrifice the Weak and Fend for Themselves.