Eukaryote
Deity
Adolf Hitler is the most evil guy in history.
The second most evil guy in history is the guy that invented bank service charges
.
The second most evil guy in history is the guy that invented bank service charges
.
Who was the most evil man in history?
- Thread starter Fox Mccloud
- Start date
- Status
Evil Tyrant
Eccentric Dictator
I'd have to say a it would be a toss up between Hitler and Stalin. Judging from body counts alone Stalin would win, but Hitler was somewhat impeded in his efforts at killing people, and did it for a rather creepy reason too.
Pokurcz
Emperor
I hope I wont spoil your fun but:
Finding you on a discussion forum I came to the hasty conclusion that you are a person who has some sort of rudimentary craving for expanding the horizons of your understanding of reality. Further finding a field, where you have very strong views I guessed that you would be interested in some up to date info that would enable that expansion for you. This Information happens to be organized and stacked in the form of books, written by intelligent freethinking creatures of your own species. It is quite complex and can therefore be better understood if you read it yourself without an intermediate media who would most definitely distort it through its own filters. As I know you understand it is better to acquire information from a source as close to the actual source of an event.
Now unfortunately I got carried away at the sight of for me apparent and appalling misconceptions on your part and proceeded to insult you with my patronizing and so on, in a manner which has evidently hindered you from actually partaking in the messages that I tried to convey. As Kurt Vonnegut had the hero of his novel Hocus Pocus claim, that if you use swearwords when you talk it will give people who dont want to hear what you say an excuse for not listening. On this occasion I used insults with the same effect, do accept my apologies.
It seems you have for some reason, most probably your paranoid view of the world, concluded that I am in total opposition of all your claims. This is not true, I do also believe that the CIA of the USA is to blame for many international problems today, their conduct has often been no less than criminal, and I do also share your views on other topics that you have mentioned. That is what I meant in my initiating post addressed to you, when I wrote that I sympathize with your try at objectivity.
After that I merely concentrated on the issue I found in alarming need of being addressed, your paranoid conspiratorial theories evidently indicating a belief in a Jewish-American plot to rule the world.
Dont you se that thoughts of that kind where the cornerstone of National Socialism in the thirties and on, in deed also a mayor, perhaps less obvious, part of the dogmas of the USSR. Dont you find it appalling to share the views of doctrines based on hate and the destruction of fellow human beings? Have you asked yourself what void your elitism is supposed to fill?
I would also like to use this occasion and change my list of recommended literature and narrow it down to one book only: The enslaved mind by Czeslaw Milosz, I believe it might be the one most suitable in your case. It is only some 255 pages long and contains insights of a potency and clarity seldom seen. The Polish poet describes (in prose) the time he spent in his homeland until 1953 when he emigrated.
The part that you will find most interesting is when he describes four friends of his who also are writers and in this book represent distinct categories of intellectuals who are, in various degrees, forced to adopt the ideas of a regime imposed on them, if to survive in their professions.
Now the book is truly a masterpiece and I do believe, in possession of something remarkably close to objectivity in the truest sense of the word, an entity in it self which I definitely will reframe from desecrating by cutting up for you in neat little packages, it would then lose most of its brilliance.
Please take time to read it, at least to satisfy your curiosity.
Finding you on a discussion forum I came to the hasty conclusion that you are a person who has some sort of rudimentary craving for expanding the horizons of your understanding of reality. Further finding a field, where you have very strong views I guessed that you would be interested in some up to date info that would enable that expansion for you. This Information happens to be organized and stacked in the form of books, written by intelligent freethinking creatures of your own species. It is quite complex and can therefore be better understood if you read it yourself without an intermediate media who would most definitely distort it through its own filters. As I know you understand it is better to acquire information from a source as close to the actual source of an event.
Now unfortunately I got carried away at the sight of for me apparent and appalling misconceptions on your part and proceeded to insult you with my patronizing and so on, in a manner which has evidently hindered you from actually partaking in the messages that I tried to convey. As Kurt Vonnegut had the hero of his novel Hocus Pocus claim, that if you use swearwords when you talk it will give people who dont want to hear what you say an excuse for not listening. On this occasion I used insults with the same effect, do accept my apologies.
It seems you have for some reason, most probably your paranoid view of the world, concluded that I am in total opposition of all your claims. This is not true, I do also believe that the CIA of the USA is to blame for many international problems today, their conduct has often been no less than criminal, and I do also share your views on other topics that you have mentioned. That is what I meant in my initiating post addressed to you, when I wrote that I sympathize with your try at objectivity.
After that I merely concentrated on the issue I found in alarming need of being addressed, your paranoid conspiratorial theories evidently indicating a belief in a Jewish-American plot to rule the world.
Dont you se that thoughts of that kind where the cornerstone of National Socialism in the thirties and on, in deed also a mayor, perhaps less obvious, part of the dogmas of the USSR. Dont you find it appalling to share the views of doctrines based on hate and the destruction of fellow human beings? Have you asked yourself what void your elitism is supposed to fill?
I would also like to use this occasion and change my list of recommended literature and narrow it down to one book only: The enslaved mind by Czeslaw Milosz, I believe it might be the one most suitable in your case. It is only some 255 pages long and contains insights of a potency and clarity seldom seen. The Polish poet describes (in prose) the time he spent in his homeland until 1953 when he emigrated.
The part that you will find most interesting is when he describes four friends of his who also are writers and in this book represent distinct categories of intellectuals who are, in various degrees, forced to adopt the ideas of a regime imposed on them, if to survive in their professions.
Now the book is truly a masterpiece and I do believe, in possession of something remarkably close to objectivity in the truest sense of the word, an entity in it self which I definitely will reframe from desecrating by cutting up for you in neat little packages, it would then lose most of its brilliance.
Please take time to read it, at least to satisfy your curiosity.
Phyr_Negator
Anti-tolerast
Pokurcz hope we would not reduce discussion by mutual insulting again.
I can tell, that my first information about Holocaust I have to translate from english. One of sources - Nolman Finkelstein, a jew actually, who wrote "Holocaust industry". Author's parents survived Warsaw ghetto, but lost other relatives.
As for Gulag and other theories, I think that it's unlogical to listen whitnesses of that there was NO million-man repressions. Simple way of proving that there was no mass repressions is counter-proofs, cuz we have clear statements. Never heared that any of that counter-proofs was translated, because no-one interested in that, and besides they are not a book-wide, but simple list of faces and counter-fact n\based on documental and UN statistics(in case USSR or UN statistics can be fake).
To doubt and to question some theories does not mean that one is obsessed by conspiracy theories.
It's problematic to trust Czeslaw Milosz because he fled to France, then California and wrote "Enslaved mind" during Cold War, wich was used as a propaganda. But I mention it. but still I can;t understand why he refused to take part in Warsaw uprising.
I can tell, that my first information about Holocaust I have to translate from english. One of sources - Nolman Finkelstein, a jew actually, who wrote "Holocaust industry". Author's parents survived Warsaw ghetto, but lost other relatives.
As for Gulag and other theories, I think that it's unlogical to listen whitnesses of that there was NO million-man repressions. Simple way of proving that there was no mass repressions is counter-proofs, cuz we have clear statements. Never heared that any of that counter-proofs was translated, because no-one interested in that, and besides they are not a book-wide, but simple list of faces and counter-fact n\based on documental and UN statistics(in case USSR or UN statistics can be fake).
Never claimed that, only told that your point of view BASICALLY close to that of US. CIA is a different question.
To doubt and to question some theories does not mean that one is obsessed by conspiracy theories.
National Socialism basically not hatred towards other nations, but love to your nation.
It's problematic to trust Czeslaw Milosz because he fled to France, then California and wrote "Enslaved mind" during Cold War, wich was used as a propaganda. But I mention it. but still I can;t understand why he refused to take part in Warsaw uprising.
Pokurcz
Emperor
I have visited Auszwitz-Birkenau as a turist, what I saw there together with the pictures from the liberations of similar camps and eye witness reports is more evidence than I need. Textiles made out of human hair, you could examine it closely, seing the individual strands.
I have talked myself with people who escaped siberian camps during WW2, how about the execution of Polish officers and inteligentia at Katyn and other places, 22,000 people in mass graves with soviet bullets in their heads.
Your writing Czeslaw Milosz book off before hand, read it, it comes from his soul, thats not propaganda.
I'm not sure why he did not partake in the uprising of Warsaw, I do believe to remember that he described (in his book) the majority of the participants as fervent nationalists.
Why do you choose to trust certain people and not others. Are not the ones that did not emigrate equaly biased because of believing the lies and taking the bribes in sacrifice of their freedom?
You seem like a person full of hate and distrust for humanity.
Our basical concepts of reality are to different, we barely speak the same language, further discussion is futile.
I have talked myself with people who escaped siberian camps during WW2, how about the execution of Polish officers and inteligentia at Katyn and other places, 22,000 people in mass graves with soviet bullets in their heads.
Your writing Czeslaw Milosz book off before hand, read it, it comes from his soul, thats not propaganda.
I'm not sure why he did not partake in the uprising of Warsaw, I do believe to remember that he described (in his book) the majority of the participants as fervent nationalists.
Why do you choose to trust certain people and not others. Are not the ones that did not emigrate equaly biased because of believing the lies and taking the bribes in sacrifice of their freedom?
You seem like a person full of hate and distrust for humanity.
Our basical concepts of reality are to different, we barely speak the same language, further discussion is futile.
Phyr_Negator
Anti-tolerast
I prefer not to trust peope at all, cuz mostly thet's unreliable source.
I can't even imagine how people can escape Siberian camps. Ig the managed to escape camp itself then almost 99% that he'll die within day or two without suitable supplies. But no matter, no one say that there was no such camps, cuz after WWII thousands of german pows were sent to restore destroyed industry so someone couldpossibly escape, I can debate anly numbers of that camps, not their existence.
About gas cameras I can tell that there is NOT even a one plan of gas camera. Auszwitz was modernized after being captured by soviet forces. Later, american gas cameras design and construction expert Frad Leichter observed gas cameras and sentenced that by any means they can't be used to mortification of people. As for textiles I never heared.
Katin I can discuss.
At first - Katin officers' execution trial never reached court, as during 1945 and modern days too. Mostly cuz no one is assured about proofs. One of reasons that it never started that no one can clearly tell reason to kill officers and different way of execution used by german einseizcommand and NKVD. Althrough there some major theories like: Goebbels falsification(katyn was on german-occupied territory by the time Goebbels started propaganda campaign), and research of age of executions wich showed 1941, but that theory and research was performed by USSR so can be unobjective.
I can't even imagine how people can escape Siberian camps. Ig the managed to escape camp itself then almost 99% that he'll die within day or two without suitable supplies. But no matter, no one say that there was no such camps, cuz after WWII thousands of german pows were sent to restore destroyed industry so someone couldpossibly escape, I can debate anly numbers of that camps, not their existence.
About gas cameras I can tell that there is NOT even a one plan of gas camera. Auszwitz was modernized after being captured by soviet forces. Later, american gas cameras design and construction expert Frad Leichter observed gas cameras and sentenced that by any means they can't be used to mortification of people. As for textiles I never heared.
Katin I can discuss.
At first - Katin officers' execution trial never reached court, as during 1945 and modern days too. Mostly cuz no one is assured about proofs. One of reasons that it never started that no one can clearly tell reason to kill officers and different way of execution used by german einseizcommand and NKVD. Althrough there some major theories like: Goebbels falsification(katyn was on german-occupied territory by the time Goebbels started propaganda campaign), and research of age of executions wich showed 1941, but that theory and research was performed by USSR so can be unobjective.
Maybe. I think that humanism, is a worst flaw in human society and an obstracle on the way of progress. Our views deffer greatly, so discussion will be truly futile.
Icmancin
WSNR Pte
I voted:
Adolf Hitler
Hitler is the worst man in history. He was a sick man who murdered by race. He brought rascism a new high. To me, the worst thing a man could do is murder people because of ethnic background or religious views. Hitler murdered 8 million because of this. His armies also klled millions who stood against his Nazi views. Hitler was a racial murder which I beleive is the largest atrocity a living being can do.
Joseph Stalin (forgot to vote, mods give him my vote
Joseph Stalin is a mass murderer as well. However I was less motivated to vote for him as he didn't murder on racial preferance. He murdered those who were aginst his Communist system which I am a semi-beleiver. (please don't start a flame war but I am a Neo-Socialist) However he caused thousands of deaths due to paranoia and horrible battle tactics. Millions of Russians could have lived if he had used modern tactics, not WW1, and not had murdered officers for suspected treason. I still think Hitler was worse, murdering on racial views, but it is almost balanced out by Stalins tactic of "Murdering in numbers." I watched a documentary on Stalin: it said that:
a) when he receive his apartment in Moscow in was filled with new furniture. He had specifically demanded old furniture. He ordered the people responsable punished. (Wacko)
b) His advisors told him to exile and kill in numbers (We should kill 3 000 this month and sned another 4000 to the camps)
Number 2 most Evil man in history
George W. Bush
I hate this bas****. End of disscussion.
Adolf Hitler
Hitler is the worst man in history. He was a sick man who murdered by race. He brought rascism a new high. To me, the worst thing a man could do is murder people because of ethnic background or religious views. Hitler murdered 8 million because of this. His armies also klled millions who stood against his Nazi views. Hitler was a racial murder which I beleive is the largest atrocity a living being can do.
Joseph Stalin (forgot to vote, mods give him my vote
Joseph Stalin is a mass murderer as well. However I was less motivated to vote for him as he didn't murder on racial preferance. He murdered those who were aginst his Communist system which I am a semi-beleiver. (please don't start a flame war but I am a Neo-Socialist) However he caused thousands of deaths due to paranoia and horrible battle tactics. Millions of Russians could have lived if he had used modern tactics, not WW1, and not had murdered officers for suspected treason. I still think Hitler was worse, murdering on racial views, but it is almost balanced out by Stalins tactic of "Murdering in numbers." I watched a documentary on Stalin: it said that:
a) when he receive his apartment in Moscow in was filled with new furniture. He had specifically demanded old furniture. He ordered the people responsable punished. (Wacko)
b) His advisors told him to exile and kill in numbers (We should kill 3 000 this month and sned another 4000 to the camps)
Number 2 most Evil man in history
George W. Bush
I hate this bas****. End of disscussion.
Adler17
Prussian Feldmarschall
Icmancin, Stalin persecuted also some Caucasian people, the Wolga Germans and several other groups only due to their race or nationality. So he is not far away from Hitler.
Adler
Adler
Phyr_Negator
Anti-tolerast
They were persecuted not due to their nationality but for their loyality. 90% desertion(100% for crimean tatars) in chechen/kabardino-balkar/crimean-tatar units, mass sabotages mixed with treasons and aid to invaders, as soon as nazi forces closed to Crimea and Caucas, don't know about Volga germans. After all that wasn't persecution, none were sent to camps, except for traitiors and maradeurs, that was mostly - mass movement. THose who were moved receaved money aid, places to live. Stalin would be fool to leave them near front line, cuz that was constant threat. Nevertheless each moved gamily could took with them 500kg of anything they wish. While trasfere, they were supported by medical service and enough amounts of food. But not all were moved, families of those who did not deserted, or fought guerilla wars wasn't afected by transfere.Adler17 said:
As for me, I think that Stalin was too mild and kind to them, as still as during WWII they are constant threat to civilians and peace(especially in Ukraine), supporting terrorism almost openly.
Moggy
Warlord
I voted for both Hitler and Stalin. Both evil evil bastards.
But I do wonder if they really were the most evil men ever. The only reason they killed that many was because they had full control over powerful countries.
What about serial killers? The sort of people that will torture and murder people just to get pleasure from it? They dont have the opportunity to kill millions but does that make them less evil?
After all if we are just dealing in body counts arent mosquitoes (or at least the Malaria virus the mosquitoes carry!) the biggest killer of humans? We wouldnt really describe them as evil though would we!
But I do wonder if they really were the most evil men ever. The only reason they killed that many was because they had full control over powerful countries.
What about serial killers? The sort of people that will torture and murder people just to get pleasure from it? They dont have the opportunity to kill millions but does that make them less evil?
After all if we are just dealing in body counts arent mosquitoes (or at least the Malaria virus the mosquitoes carry!) the biggest killer of humans? We wouldnt really describe them as evil though would we!
Adler17
Prussian Feldmarschall
Phy, Stalin DID deport nearly the whole Wolga German Republic to Kasachstan! So he did with the Chechens and several other tribes, which later were allowed to return. However his measures were not intended to end in a genocide by this groups, several other had not so many luck, and there was indeed genocide in the USSR, many died. And he knew that would happen. So murdering people because of a disease like persecution complex and murdering because of an abnormal antisemitism, I don´t want to say antisemitism can be normal to be clear, is for the victims and the guilt irrelevant. And although we can´t count only the victim numbers we can´t ignore them. Both are on the lowest level. One, Hitler, was more sick than the other, but Stalin had more victims. Only outnumbered by Mao. So I would say Mao with his 70 million victims is the worst, followed by Stalin and Hitler. To be clear: All couldn´t be mentally normal, while Hitler being the worst. However by recognizing the death toll, he is the best.
But to stay clear: All three would have deserved death penalty and all three are burning in the hell right now, if there is such a place. Of if the devil wants them... Nevertheless they all three have committed crimes a court or even humanity can´t imagine. So the difference between them is really little as they form an own league.
A discussion is in so far idle.
Adler
But to stay clear: All three would have deserved death penalty and all three are burning in the hell right now, if there is such a place. Of if the devil wants them... Nevertheless they all three have committed crimes a court or even humanity can´t imagine. So the difference between them is really little as they form an own league.
A discussion is in so far idle.
Adler
Phyr_Negator
Anti-tolerast
*Phyr, not Phy*
Well, none actually proved that Stalin killed millions, except speculations, I never actually interested in Mao's repressions so I can't say anything on that topic but about Stalin I can say that numbers such as 20000000 of killed/repressed is totally absurd by any logic, if you want I can list here some counter-arguments, but that'll be a suitable amount of text os I can PM, or translate here.
Well, none actually proved that Stalin killed millions, except speculations, I never actually interested in Mao's repressions so I can't say anything on that topic but about Stalin I can say that numbers such as 20000000 of killed/repressed is totally absurd by any logic, if you want I can list here some counter-arguments, but that'll be a suitable amount of text os I can PM, or translate here.
Adler17
Prussian Feldmarschall
Sorry Phyr for misspelling, but it is fact he killed so many people. You have to include the great famines in the 30s in the Ukraine, the Gulags, the cleanings...
Adler
Adler
Phyr_Negator
Anti-tolerast
Fact is that is proven. No Gulag, no purging(wich took place, but not in such proportion), and Ukraine famine (again, took place but never proven that Stalin "organized" it).
wit>trope
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2004
- Messages
- 2,871
superisis said:
Well "man" generally means any human in this context.
Being evil and being powerful are two totally different things. You can be the most evil but not be powerful at all and you can be most powerful and not be evil at all.
Having the opportunity to put evil intentions or desires into practice and being evil are two different things.
Someone said Saddam can't be compared to Stalin ... well Saddam had he the opportunity (like if he was dictator of Russia instead of dictator of Iraq) could have killed just as many as Stalin.
Now if you're asking who is the most SUCCESSFUL evil man, then that's a different story.
I mean say if a terrorist tries to nuke the whole world but fails due to some technical glitch -- that doesn't make him any less evil for trying!
Anywho, back on topic...
Out of the people we know about in history, I'd say it's impossible to guess with any reasonable accuracy who was the most evil. But if I HAD to guess, I'd guess that it was someone mentioned in the Bible like maybe the Egyptian Pharaoh or Judas or Nero etc. I'm 99.999% sure it wouldn't be Hitler (the fact that "everyone" thinks it would be him and that he tops the list of options tells you it can't be him for one thing) It could be Stalin though. It could also be Napolean.
Zardnaar
Deity
Mao seems to be the worst. Adler I take it you have recently read "Mao the Unknown Story"?
The Holocaust figures have been revised down to 5.5 Million from around 6 million in the years following WW2. To deny the Holocaust rests on several beliefs.
1. Every Jewish survivor is a liar.
2. All the photos are faked.
3. All the physical remnants of the camps are fake.
4. All the liberating Allied soldiers who found the camps are liars.
5. All the Germans who witnessed it are liars espicially Speer.
6. All the SS men who have admitted it (some weren't involved in it) are also liars.
Also they love using several points like.
1. Gas chambers didn't exist or they weren't used such as Dachau. This is actually true for Dachau but the worst camps were in Poland not Germany. Theres a 20 feet thick pile of human ash buried near one of the camps if you can be bothered looking.
2. Evidence was faked. This is also true but in only 1 case I'm aware of. The human skin lampshade was a fake by the KGB at Nuremburg I think. The human skin boots/lampshade/curtains seems to have its origins in Buchenwald and Ilse Koch house when they arrested her as she had a white lampshade which was described as something like "pale as human skin" which turned into made from human skin.
3. Lies its all lies. They like using the soap made out of human fat rumor or curtains made from human skin. The human soap story has its origins in taunts people used to yell at Jews being deported. Tests on RMF soap (the alleged Jewish fat soap) revealed no human DNA in it. Because a few tales told turn out to be lies they try and discredit the entire Holocaust.
Most Holocaust deniers seem to admit the camps existed but there was no deliberate attempt at mass murder and the deaths were a result of sickness and the breakdown of the German supply system due to bombing and territories being over run. Odd I don't recall any German civilians starving to death in Germany although they were hungry. Even if this is true you're only arguing about how they died.
A good honest Neo Nazi can at least admit it happened usually with words to the effect "Pity they didn't finish the job".
The Holocaust figures have been revised down to 5.5 Million from around 6 million in the years following WW2. To deny the Holocaust rests on several beliefs.
1. Every Jewish survivor is a liar.
2. All the photos are faked.
3. All the physical remnants of the camps are fake.
4. All the liberating Allied soldiers who found the camps are liars.
5. All the Germans who witnessed it are liars espicially Speer.
6. All the SS men who have admitted it (some weren't involved in it) are also liars.
Also they love using several points like.
1. Gas chambers didn't exist or they weren't used such as Dachau. This is actually true for Dachau but the worst camps were in Poland not Germany. Theres a 20 feet thick pile of human ash buried near one of the camps if you can be bothered looking.
2. Evidence was faked. This is also true but in only 1 case I'm aware of. The human skin lampshade was a fake by the KGB at Nuremburg I think. The human skin boots/lampshade/curtains seems to have its origins in Buchenwald and Ilse Koch house when they arrested her as she had a white lampshade which was described as something like "pale as human skin" which turned into made from human skin.
3. Lies its all lies. They like using the soap made out of human fat rumor or curtains made from human skin. The human soap story has its origins in taunts people used to yell at Jews being deported. Tests on RMF soap (the alleged Jewish fat soap) revealed no human DNA in it. Because a few tales told turn out to be lies they try and discredit the entire Holocaust.
Most Holocaust deniers seem to admit the camps existed but there was no deliberate attempt at mass murder and the deaths were a result of sickness and the breakdown of the German supply system due to bombing and territories being over run. Odd I don't recall any German civilians starving to death in Germany although they were hungry. Even if this is true you're only arguing about how they died.
A good honest Neo Nazi can at least admit it happened usually with words to the effect "Pity they didn't finish the job".
Eukaryote
Deity
I dunno? Paris Hilton?
Phyr_Negator
Anti-tolerast
Zardnaar, WRONG! Never ever revisionism stated that all that.
Revisionism denying only that:
1.That existed plan on physical destroying all jews.
2.That existed "gas cameras" and "death camps" created ONLY to destroy people.
3.That 5-6kk jews were killed under national-socialism goverment.
Revisionists do NOT deny such things:
1.That under NS goverment jews were perseuted AS other non-aryan nations. Debates physical destruction intention.
2.That in camps was high death ratio. Debates that camps was created for sole purpose of people killing.
3.That nazi killed jews. Debating only numbers of killed.
I may remind that it's task of those who want to prove to bring proofs. No one will prove that something do NOT exist due to stupidness. But just now, trial itself according to wich Holocaust casualities(5-6kk) "proved" contained one phrase that denies all it's results -" Nuremberg tribunal will not demand proofs of WELL KNOWN facts, accepting them fully." And several of that kind regarding witnesses.
If Holocaust extinction is true, why to forbid research? No one should be afraid of results wich surely present all that casualties. Why persecute everyone who wish to research on that troublesome problem - that's so easy - all revisionists will see results and their opponents will gain valuable facts.
Revisionism denying only that:
1.That existed plan on physical destroying all jews.
2.That existed "gas cameras" and "death camps" created ONLY to destroy people.
3.That 5-6kk jews were killed under national-socialism goverment.
Revisionists do NOT deny such things:
1.That under NS goverment jews were perseuted AS other non-aryan nations. Debates physical destruction intention.
2.That in camps was high death ratio. Debates that camps was created for sole purpose of people killing.
3.That nazi killed jews. Debating only numbers of killed.
I may remind that it's task of those who want to prove to bring proofs. No one will prove that something do NOT exist due to stupidness. But just now, trial itself according to wich Holocaust casualities(5-6kk) "proved" contained one phrase that denies all it's results -" Nuremberg tribunal will not demand proofs of WELL KNOWN facts, accepting them fully." And several of that kind regarding witnesses.
If Holocaust extinction is true, why to forbid research? No one should be afraid of results wich surely present all that casualties. Why persecute everyone who wish to research on that troublesome problem - that's so easy - all revisionists will see results and their opponents will gain valuable facts.
))) and by the way, never you thought where concentration camps will be at supply chain(especially if own population almost starving)?
Zardnaar
Deity
Theres ample proof on the Holocaust- photos,eye witness accounts, the camps themselves but the revisionists basically claim its all lies. They blend enough truth with distortion of the facts to arrive at preconcieved ideas. A normal historian works something like this.
A+B=C. C being the ansewer with the best information available.
David Irving and other Holocaust revisionists use.
C=A+B They already have the ansewer they want and make selected facts "prove" the ansewer they want. There were 2 types of concentration camps in general. The concentration camps were in Germany and while alot of people died in them they were basically labour or detention camps for percieved enemies of the state and were set up in the early 30's. These camps were for political enemies mainly.
The death camps were mainly in Poland. Revisionists can't deny that somehow 5.5 million people were deported and died in the camps. They seek to distort that figure by claiming neglect, disease, sickness, bombing, and getting caught up in the moving front in the last year of the war kiled the majority of the people. Since the Germans dismantled all the camps before the Soviets got there they claim theres no proof. Physical evidence such as pits with human ash in them are claimed to be remains of people cremated in the camps after they died but not due to any plan to deliberately gas them.
The proof is there but is is usually ignored or dismissed. Can you honestly tell me that all the survivors who claim they saw gas chambers are lying or are suffering from some mass delusion? Adler17(sorry to drag your name into it BTW) who is from Germany has often mentioned his grandfather had to dig for a year to find out what happened. At the time the Nazis tried to hide it and then they tried to destroy the evidence- the camps in Poland, death marches for surviving prisoners. They didn't seem to have the time to destroy the camps in Germany.
A+B=C. C being the ansewer with the best information available.
David Irving and other Holocaust revisionists use.
C=A+B They already have the ansewer they want and make selected facts "prove" the ansewer they want. There were 2 types of concentration camps in general. The concentration camps were in Germany and while alot of people died in them they were basically labour or detention camps for percieved enemies of the state and were set up in the early 30's. These camps were for political enemies mainly.
The death camps were mainly in Poland. Revisionists can't deny that somehow 5.5 million people were deported and died in the camps. They seek to distort that figure by claiming neglect, disease, sickness, bombing, and getting caught up in the moving front in the last year of the war kiled the majority of the people. Since the Germans dismantled all the camps before the Soviets got there they claim theres no proof. Physical evidence such as pits with human ash in them are claimed to be remains of people cremated in the camps after they died but not due to any plan to deliberately gas them.
The proof is there but is is usually ignored or dismissed. Can you honestly tell me that all the survivors who claim they saw gas chambers are lying or are suffering from some mass delusion? Adler17(sorry to drag your name into it BTW) who is from Germany has often mentioned his grandfather had to dig for a year to find out what happened. At the time the Nazis tried to hide it and then they tried to destroy the evidence- the camps in Poland, death marches for surviving prisoners. They didn't seem to have the time to destroy the camps in Germany.
wit>trope
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Let's be objective.
Take a look at the pictures of the alleged gas chambers. See them for yourself and make up your own mind about them. I've seen them for myself. The pictures are on the web. They don't really look like gas chambers.
It's beyond dispute that there was never a plan to kill literally EVERY SINGLE JEW in the WHOLE WORLD because then the Germans would not only have to do it in Europe and Africa (there are Jews there too) and the Middle East and Russia but also in Asia (there are Jews there too) and Australia (Jews there too) and the United States and all of the Americas (Jews there too). For the Germans to be able to kill every single one of them, they would have had to have control over the entire world. So obviously it's not LITERALLY true that the planned to kill EVERY SINGLE JEW in the WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD.
MAINSTREAM estimates of the number of Roma/Sinti killed vary from 200,000 to 800,000. That's a difference multiple of 4. People should not be called "Holocaust deniers" just because they favor a number of Jewish deaths that differs by the EXACT SAME MULTIPLE of 4. So for example, if someone thinks the number killed is 1.4 million instead of 5.6 million (the high end estimate), then that's a difference multiple of 4 -- exactly the same as the difference multiple for 200,000 versus 800,000 which are both considered mainstream estimates by wikipedia and the historical community.
Take a look at the pictures of the alleged gas chambers. See them for yourself and make up your own mind about them. I've seen them for myself. The pictures are on the web. They don't really look like gas chambers.
It's beyond dispute that there was never a plan to kill literally EVERY SINGLE JEW in the WHOLE WORLD because then the Germans would not only have to do it in Europe and Africa (there are Jews there too) and the Middle East and Russia but also in Asia (there are Jews there too) and Australia (Jews there too) and the United States and all of the Americas (Jews there too). For the Germans to be able to kill every single one of them, they would have had to have control over the entire world. So obviously it's not LITERALLY true that the planned to kill EVERY SINGLE JEW in the WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD.
MAINSTREAM estimates of the number of Roma/Sinti killed vary from 200,000 to 800,000. That's a difference multiple of 4. People should not be called "Holocaust deniers" just because they favor a number of Jewish deaths that differs by the EXACT SAME MULTIPLE of 4. So for example, if someone thinks the number killed is 1.4 million instead of 5.6 million (the high end estimate), then that's a difference multiple of 4 -- exactly the same as the difference multiple for 200,000 versus 800,000 which are both considered mainstream estimates by wikipedia and the historical community.
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