Who was the most evil man in history?

[craig9897]

Paul Pot : for not only the cruelest, but the least educated. Worst idea's, worst actions equal worst person.
Close second goes to the Chairman and his 'Cultural revolution'.

*As for 'Jesus', most evidence indicates that no such person ever existed.*

 

[Pokurcz]

Churchill and the firebombing of Dresden, I have forgotten how many casualitys, but I do believe it was in the order of 100,000. Mostly civilians, killing for terrors sake. That is sort of evil.

Truman and H-bombs dropped on Japan, sort of evil to.

I did vote for Stalin, juged on what he did (some 10M dead in Ukraine in the begining of the thirtys), but Hitler did have potential....still, he was twarted.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Strange poll. Mostly Russian/comm leaders, but no Churchill ordering useless terror bombardment of civilian population, king George, Clinton who started war to clean spots out of monica's dress, Harry s Truman, ordered bombardment of Hiroshima/Nagasaki to kill civilians, and so on.

AS for mentioned can you list some of Khruschev's atrocities?
Lenin managed to establish new powerful country and mostly hated by enemies of his ideas.
Adolf Hitler - he restored almost DEAD country that managed to destroy most modern armies.
Mao Tse Tung - managed to unite china into powerful state.
Stalin - under his rule production rose in unimaginable rate. Purging took place of caurse, but surely not in scales shown by anti-stalin propagandists. The fun thing that all witnesses of "awful Stalin regime" is 99% traitors, immigrants or dissidents)
Ivan the Terrible - ahem...what atrocities? He was called Terible mostly by his enemies, cuz shown little mercy to rebels and captured invaders. And again, please list some of his atrocities. Killing civilians by oprichniks do not llok like being real, althrough oprichniks DO fight Ivan's enemies, but not in scales of thousands of slaughtered as some like to tell.
But....
Indonesia — The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Sukarno with a military coup. The CIA has been trying to eliminate Sukarno since 1957, using everything from attempted assassination to sexual intrigue, for nothing more than his declaring neutrality in the Cold War. His successor, General Suharto, will massacre between 500,000 to 1 million civilians accused of being "communist." The CIA supplies the names of countless suspects.
Cambodia — The CIA overthrows Prince Sahounek, who is highly popular among Cambodians for keeping them out of the Vietnam War. He is replaced by CIA puppet Lon Nol, who immediately throws Cambodian troops into battle. This unpopular move strengthens once minor opposition parties like the Khmer Rouge, which achieves power in 1975 and massacres millions of its own people
Angola — Eager to demonstrate American military resolve after its defeat in Vietnam, Henry Kissinger launches a CIA-backed war in Angola. Contrary to Kissinger’s assertions, Angola is a country of little strategic importance and not seriously threatened by communism. The CIA backs the brutal leader of UNITAS, Jonas Savimbi. This polarizes Angolan politics and drives his opponents into the arms of Cuba and the Soviet Union for survival. Congress will cut off funds in 1976, but the CIA is able to run the war off the books until 1984, when funding is legalized again. This entirely pointless war kills over 300,000 Angolans
So atrocities is simply point of view. For some Stalin is hero, but for others he is villain. Just be objective and don't make it one-sided poll.
Edit:As for me, I'd vote for Jesus, none other poisoned more minds than him.

 

[Pokurcz]

Phyr_Negator

"Edit:As for me, I'd vote for Jesus, none other poisoned more minds than him."

I would like to point out that Jesus didn't have much to do with christianity as we know it. That was all Peters doing, for you se after Jesus death there was a powerstrugle betwen the apostles for who had the right understanding of Jesus's teachings. Peter was just more well organized, and his message was more powerfully uniting. I recomend "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels, a fascinating read.

I do symphatize with your try at objectivity and do agree with you general notion of evil being quite relative as I pointed out above but I couldn't agree less with: "The fun thing that all witnesses of "awful Stalin regime" is 99% traitors, immigrants or dissidents", or rather I do agree that most immigrants where "witnesses of 'awful Stalin regime'". I just don't understand why you put them in the same category as the others, if anyone it was the immigrants who could give a picture of what it was like in the USSR.
Or do you imply that all Immigrants where traitors per definition, if so you articulate yourself as a former member of the politburo though you strike me as rather a bit to young to have been that so I'll take it for a joke. Unfortunetly distastefull, but still a joke.

 

[Ramius75]

Also, i noticed that the Japanese war criminals and Hirohito is not in the list, how can anyone forget how they treated the Korean and Chinese and the harm they cause their own countrymen ?

 

[Plotinus]

The fun thing that all witnesses of "awful Stalin regime" is 99% traitors, immigrants or dissidents

I know, damned immigrants. You can't believe a word any of them say, eh...?

As for the claim (a) to be objective and (b) to call Jesus the most evil man in history, I don't think there's much more to be said. Although I'd point out that you can't attribute Christianity to Peter any more than to Jesus or any single person: it was too complex a movement for that.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

as for jesus - that was a provoking joke)
as for immigrants - they can't have objective view, cuz they are leaving country they were originally in due to SOME REASONS. I empathise theory that immigrants and dissidents create a kind of excuses for their leaving such as "awful regime", "evil rulers" or such, same can be applied to every immigrants with same publications, except maybe for immigration due to natural disaster. Mentioning traitors, dissidents and immigrants was due to almost same end effect - scolding of Soviet system etc. Of caurse not all immigrants are traitors). I would be surprised if someone will trust some traitor who would "uncover" some facts about country he bertrayed publicaly. Simply I'm surprised that 50% of listed "villains" are communistic leaders. And others are - Saddam and Hitler, wich was enemies of US, and I't obviousley that author is american with who voted for Bush. Just be objective.

 

[Adler17]

As for Hirohito: He was emperor in Japan. That meant he couldn´t do anything. No he was not responsible.
But I just read a few weeks ago about the really most evil man: Mao. Even Hitler and Stalin had less victims together than him: 70 millions!
Again this is relative and I must say all of the mentioned guys (no not John Kerry) deserve the death penalty for their crimes (perhaps should I exclude also GWB II.? ).

Adler

 

[Adler17]

Concerning Truman, Roosevelt and Churchill: They were war criminals IMO but not the most evil men.

Adler

 

[Pokurcz]

Plotinus
“I'd point out that you can't attribute Christianity to Peter any more than to Jesus or any single person: it was too complex a movement for that.”

Of coarse you can! Just read the Pagels book and get some insight!
“to complex a movement” my hairy lower back!

Phyr_Negator
So you are saying that anyone who has been subjected to a monstrous inhuman government is disqualified as a witness of its crimes because of being biased as a result of being a victim.
Does this mean that you do not believe the claims about being victims of atrocities of survivors of Nazi koncentrationcamps because they where there?!

Good grief man! Do you at least acknowledge the world outside of your head?

Of coarse the author of the poll is an American and as a result of that is influenced to be anti communist and therefore lacking in objectivity, that’s beside the point.
The point is that you are apparently so eager to be the opposite of what it means to be an American that you make outrageously un-objective propositions.

By writing “Just be objective”, you only mean: 'Agree with me'.

Adler17
“Concerning Truman, Roosevelt and Churchill: They were war criminals IMO but not the most evil men.”

Yes indeed, but with people like “Ho Chi Minh” and “Mussolini” included on the list I believed them dudes to be equally qualified.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

I do believe that nazi concapms existed but I DO NOT BELIEVE that 6 megajews were killed there and scale of killing there(althrough it was high of caurse, but "facts" and numbers pesented as a OFFICIAL proof on Nuremberg was complete unreal). I do not believe something only cuz n+1 people screaming that's true or it's common to think that's true. I prefer facts or at LEAST statistics(not ONE statistic, but always various to be able to compare).
Next. I know a LOT of people who lived under monstrous inhuman government and got absolutely free education, medical services, apartaments and so on. But swearing and "uncovering of crimes" of inhuman goverment heared mostly from other countries. That formed my opinionm along with applying some logic and calculations to numbers of that "millions of repressed". You know, some people can say that USA/China/USSR and other countries got "monstrous inhuman government". Again, that's only a point of view.

 

[Nyvin]

I'd say either Robert Clive, or Queen Elizabeth 1st. I supose Francis Drake could be a possibility also.

 

[Pokurcz]

Man, what and who you chose to believe is your own business, but if you only listen to one party only, you can hardly call yourself objective (no matter how many times you repeat the word in your head) and if you do not even try to be objective for the sake of hearing everybody out before you pass judgment, how on earth do you imagine that your opinion represents anything remotely close to the truth.
And don’t try to tell me that you don’t claim to know the truth (I mean if there even is such a thing philosophically speaking) for your use of absolute terms and the tone of your statements, not to mention your misconception of the word “objective” makes you as readable as an open book.

That is by the way your mayor malfunction, you are already sure that you know and therefore you don’t even listen to what other people have to say. For what I know your probably obsessed by conspiration theories, despite the odds I’ll just make this token attempt of helping you to clarity by recommending these two books: “Holocaust on trial” by D. D. Guttenplan and “Gulag: a history” by Anne Applebaum. Go rid yourself of them shackles man, the world is a happier place on the other side.

 

[Pokurcz]

No I can’t help myself, this is just to good.
For Pete’s sake man, you don’t believe the immigrants who suffered the persecution, lack of freedom of speech and other downsides of the regime, but you do believe the people who stayed, trained like dogs to bark and jump at their master’s command and live of the scraps from under their table all to the mind-soothing melody of “the International”.
Do you have a brainslug or something?

Moderator Action: Let's not get personal. - KD

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Pokurcz did you even bothered reading my post?
You are weird. I told you that I DO NOT belive something unless I got facts and still you stay blind to that sentence. Listed facts about Holocaust and Gulag failed critics in MY opinion. Want to discuss? Pm me or list here some major statements and we'll see if I can counter them. And don't tell me to read first) I can say too - read that, that and that books volumes I-XXXXX and close discussion. If you read thet you can list major thesises.
And I DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW THE TRUTH) I claim to know list of facts and some theory that I accept until better theory won't come up. Ye know, scientists do not believe in evolution, they mostly just accept it as a best theory to the day.
And stop taking my quotes out of contest - I said that I do not BELIEVE in Holocaust BECAUSE of information I got from Nuremberg "process" and international reserches, but not cuz I wanted to believe.
In a way I can tell thet you are accepting common info. Didi you ever doubt about what are you told? Consptheory is a highest peak of doubt, but not to doubt absolutely - that's just the same as be obsessed by consptheory
Anyone can agree or disagree with me, my first post in this topic related representation.
Funny thing that in your pre-last post you described youself))).

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Poll coming...

Edit: Now vote!

Edit Edit: It's multiple choice, and public.

Depends what you mean by "evil". It is a subjective term. However, if you mean most destructive, I'd say Adolf Hitler by far. However, Josef Stalin had more blood on his hands, although he was not self-destructive like Hitler.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Don;t want to edit last post so answer here. Looks like you never saw that "trained like dogs to bark and jump at their master’s command" but accept that they are really exist because you are told by someone or watched by TV) Let's say that:
you do believe the people who stayed, trained like dogs to bark and jump at their master’s command and live of the scraps from under their table all to the mind-soothing melody of “God Bless America”?
See, isn't that familiar? i don't want to down tsit topic to anti-commy/anti-americans but I can tell you the same - "you are brainwashed", "you are programmed", etc. You just got another programm. Remember- No victim of brainwashing ever accepted that it was brainwashed or influenced. From my point of view you just consumed ton of propaganda and "official history" stuff. Say, did you ever doubt about official versions of american revolution? Or holocaust? Or somethig that differs from official versions? Found it strange why every country persecuted every simple researcher who wished to gather simple information in Auchwitz and Holocaust or research that "gas cameras"? Give it a try.

 

[Pokurcz]

Now look here Phyr, I’m sorry I hurt your feelings, but you’re a lost cause.
I have red your posts, and wept (silently). It’s probably because I don’t spend enough time on forums, but I forgot that there where people like you.

The reason why I asked you to read those books and did not post “proof” is because it would have been to much effort to go through all that basic stuff here on the net, and I felt that those writers have more talent than I have in explaining things and that they have already done the work for me.
If you have not read those books or similar literature, and I had gone at it, there would have followed a long arduous path of finding a common language with many nooks and crannies, and furthermore you would have been hindered by your sense of pride to admit those basics in front of me. Reading those books in private, on the other hand, you would have been able to acquire that knowledge at your own pace in the privacy of your home without having to show your shame in public.
For you see, that is what books are fore, they contain knowledge, you know like in school, it is good for you. Regretfully you have to perform the arduous task of reading, but after hard work the prize tastes better.

I do believe that the Holocaust book would do you a lot of good, for not only does it tell the history, it also goes in deep in to an actual legal trial in modern time, where both sides are heard. You don’t have to admit to me if you read it, the prospect of the possibility is reward enough for me.

Damn I’m a patronizing bastard, I wonder if there is a special circle for the likes of me in hell? But I do regret it the instant the deed is done, I do…

You got your info from the Nuremberg trial, how sweet, now don’t you think that that trial was preposterously biased, I mean those guys just had to lose their heads no matter what, the public demanded it, the ruskis, everyone did. Don’t you se my friend? Your source is biased.

I see that you pity me for “accepting common info”, that is very considerate of you, I am touched, somewhere deep, I guess where my heart used to be.
Do I doubt what people tell me? A good question! I see that there is a shadow of sense in you, there is hope to be had yet!
But don’t you see? You’re admitting that you’re a fan of conspiracy causality.
I mustn’t trust common knowledge, no, it is faar to common to be associated with. To have the same opinion as the grownups? Why that would make me a square, how would I be able to show my face on social gatherings? The Shame! We can’t have that now can we?!
Well I for one will face the challenge, I mean, it can’t be common for no reason now? Can it be so that if an overwhelming percentage of my fellow men are sure about something that it probably is true? Why, wouldn’t the world be a happy palace if it where so. O joyous thought that caresses me in that empty burrow which is my chest would this mean that I can trust people?! Can it be so cleverly conceived that there is a society out there which occasionally spawns brethren with morals? Let us hope! Let us pray!

Where, old chap (I feel as if I’ve known you for ever by now), in my next to last post did you find things that “described” myself, pray tell? Did you spot a fellow “consptheorist”; as you so expertly described, in me? How so? In what way have I misinterpreted the word ”objective”? I mean you of all should know, it is you’re field of expertise, as we all know by now, don’t we?

Ah yes! What a wonderful trip it has been, and with someone to share it with as well! What more can a man ask for? Well, perhaps to get laid, I know I do, you know spending this much of ones free time on bull**** costs a lad dearly in that sense. Maybe you should get laid to, I promise it’s a treat!

Now before I say goodbye may I ask, have I been eloquent enough? Have I answered you questions with the precision that you craved? I can only hope! But it has been so entertaining, I think, don’t we all…

 

[Pokurcz]

Didn’t see that last post.
You expose yourself as such a stereotype when you conclude that I must be American. Its as if your mind goes: He opposes me, that’s what Americans do/ therefore he must be a yankee.

Let me pass you the big news man! I’m a liberal in the depth of the European subcontinent!
Betchja didn’t see that one coming! Pow!

By the way while I’m at it you Nazi-commie, is “weird” your synonym of “in touch with reality”?

 

[Phyr_Negator]

*Sigh*It's so hard to communicate with such simple-minded commoners as you,Pokurcz...

Moderator Action: Cut out the name-calling. Warned. - KD
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Ok, here we go. You shouldn't post that great sentence about books but instead just can write - "I didn't read them", that should be way shorter. If you ever read you easily can list SIMPLE thesises, but I guess you prefer to imagine yourself as an intellegent patronising scholar, so I wouldn't distract you.

If you have not read those books or similar literature, and I had gone at it, there would have followed a long arduous path of finding a common language with many nooks and crannies, and furthermore you would have been hindered by your sense of pride to admit those basics in front of me. Reading those books in private, on the other hand, you would have been able to acquire that knowledge at your own pace in the privacy of your home without having to show your shame in public.

Don't know about you but I'm not ashamed to learn, still, you are not mentioned even one thesis.

I do believe that the Holocaust book would do you a lot of good, for not only does it tell the history, it also goes in deep in to an actual legal trial in modern time, where both sides are heard.

Then can you explain persecution of Holocaust-researchers scientists who do not supporting "official" version?

You got your info from the Nuremberg trial, how sweet, now don’t you think that that trial was preposterously biased, I mean those guys just had to lose their heads no matter what, the public demanded it, the ruskis, everyone did. Don’t you se my friend?

So what? I never disputed that. The point is why today someone should be persecuted cuz of nuremberg process' results? Aristotle once told that fly got 8 legs and no one even bothered to prove if that's true.

I mustn’t trust common knowledge, no, it is faar to common to be associated with.

Well, all I can tell you is an old saying: "Let fool pray and he'll smash his head."

You expose yourself as such a stereotype when you conclude that I must be American. Its as if your mind goes: He opposes me, that’s what Americans do/ therefore he must be a yankee.

I supposed that, little fella, but no matter. My sentences about america was only for comparsion as they represented polar ideologies to that I'm talking. And you look like one who share same view.

Ah yes! What a wonderful trip it has been, and with someone to share it with as well! What more can a man ask for? Well, perhaps to get laid, I know I do, you know spending this much of ones free time on bull**** costs a lad dearly in that sense. Maybe you should get laid to, I promise it’s a treat!

I prefer to use forums at work, and not interfearing netserfing with my private life) So I just surprised that you bothered printing in your FREE time.

Where, old chap (I feel as if I’ve known you for ever by now), in my next to last post did you find things that “described” myself, pray tell?

Let's say that:

...you are already sure that you know and therefore you don’t even listen to what other people have to say.

Man, what and who you chose to believe is your own business, but if you only listen to one party only, you can hardly call yourself objective (no matter how many times you repeat the word in your head)

Mention, I only represented ways of view, but never told, That's absolute truth! Believe or die! I guess you saw what you wanted to) Actuaaly it was you who mentioned Holocaust as undeniable atrocity.
Oh, almost forgot:

It’s probably because I don’t spend enough time on forums, but I forgot that there where people like you

Strange, I nearlly always find cohorts of your kind. It's fun to have conversation with such as you, making my work day less boring. So I look forward to our conversation, my entertainer, it seems next days will be quite interesting.