Why am I too stupid to understand corporations?

[Nikis-Knight]

Well... I think at this point both the funtionality of corporations and the objections to rising costs are explained plenty well. If something is awry, Firaxis is well aware, and there will eventually be a patch. If it's WAD, we'll adjust to playing with corps being used as weapons, or very situationally in your own cities, and for games that go long enough, a world-wide use of state property. So be it, some like it, others less so. Maybe some good mods will come out of it.

 

[mrt144]

Well... I think at this point both the funtionality of corporations and the objections to rising costs are explained plenty well. If something is awry, Firaxis is well aware, and there will eventually be a patch. If it's WAD, we'll adjust to playing with corps being used as weapons, or very situationally in your own cities, and for games that go long enough, a world-wide use of state property. So be it, some like it, others less so. Maybe some good mods will come out of it.

Im one of those people that doesnt like using mods though. But this might be the first time I woudl use one because the way the feature disfunctions at the moment makes me feel like there is a better way to play with the core mechanics of the feature so that it is fun, strong, and not tedious micromanagment that can go *poof* at the drop of a vote.

 

[wayne07]

That's not exactly what I said. I laid down the conditions very clearly.



Done.

Immediately after a switch to SP:

After Worldbuildering some workshops in to get production up to a comparable level:

City is seriously starving and we are still a few hammers short while losing some commerce. And all the gold saved contributed to decreasing the number of turns to research Ecology by one (increasing the science slider another 10% to cut another turn off would cost 75 gold a turn). Whoopdeedo.

I'm not saying State Property wouldn't be a good civic at this stage of the game. It's just that corporations are a viable alternative (not forgetting its cost, GE sacrificed and all) with its own benefits.

Thanks for the effort.
I think you pretty much show how you can make use of production from mining corp..... but just some points i would like to make....

1. I don't see foreign trading routes in your capital. Thus, i am now assuming that you didn't wait one turn or so for foreign trade routes to take effect. I would think it will make a bigger GPT than 600+.

2. 11 turn dam vs 8 turn dam. With Cristo, you can US and switch back immediately? Does building that in 11 turns lose you the dam? Can you rush buy and still make it in 8 turns with the extra commerce?

3. You are losing population in that revamped screenshot. Well... i think its only a 3 population lost (due to ur health issues) and the specialists lost wouldn't affect production at all. Is that hard to bear for an increase of 600 GPT?

4. I would imagine that you use MINING Inc for a long time now in the game... allowing you to build all those wonders. Is that essential in the first place for you to execute in that fashion while losing that much research? A 20+ turn difference mean ~20k research point with a gain of X hammers per turn in a few cities? Is that a viable option or a optimized option?

You mentioned that you got to the point where you prevented your rivals from getting corporations. You are ahead in tech. You are playing it nicely, the way it should.... But doesn't that mean that WITHOUT the production from MINING Inc, you still win even the space-race? Grated it might be a slower win... but right now, if we are talking about the timing of a win... corporation doesn't come into issue. Isn't that right?

That said, if you are BEHIND in tech, how does the additional production with a drastic loss in research help you?

 

[mrt144]

wayne you could absolutly rush buy that on turn 6 WITH SP

 

[wayne07]

It's not true that in the end game your economy should always be on 100% science and producing hundreds or thousands of gold per turn. There are situations where this is almost useless.

Consider the space race where you have nearly obtained all the prerequisite techs. Space ship parts are projects so cannot be rushed - all your gpt is useless. In that case it is better to spread Mining Co into your SS production cities and crank all the lesser cities to produce Wealth to fund the corps. Then make some trades to get maximum number of consumable resources and watch the hammers flow in.

Similarly, it makes potentially much more sense to setup Standard Ethanol in your science city and fund it with Wealth than to convert all that gold into beakers without any of the bonuses afforded by universities, libraries, etc. I don't have numbers but I could test it in practice.

Corps can be used to funnel money straight into specialized cities into actual food/beakers/hammers/culture, rather than running everything through the treasury first. Who cares if you have to run the science slider at 30% if you make more beakers running the corp than without it? Gold by itself is not that useful in many situations.

I agree fully. The added production is nice. you can completed faster. but the question is HOW much faster if you were to do it without corp? Can you run the economy efficiently before getting all the tech requisite without using SP (as shown by aelf)?

Are we debating whether the corporation is useful or whether corporation is broken and should be adjusted?

Corporation is of course useful. Any buildings or concept that grants you additional production/culture/wealth is USEFUL. But that doesn't mean it is not broken and should not be fixed.

My contention is that corporation is NOT a viable alternative in this game currently and thus need to be fixed. Why is it not? The trade-off is not beneficial to the player considering the late game dynamics at different levels. Isn't that the point of this debate?

 

[aelf]

Aelf, do you think there is any reason why inflation should NOT be capped at some point? In other words, any reason why SP should get better than corps as time goes by? 1934 is not that late, imo. I've had the game undecided by then before, plenty of times.

I think late game or not depends on which point of the game you are at, not the year. If you are researching Ecology in 1934, then that's late game. If you drag the game out much longer, then you just have to be prepared to face rising inflation as it is. I guess it could be 'fixed', but I believe there is a reason why inflation was increased. Perhaps it just needs to be adjusted a little or, like you said, capped at a certain point that is beyond my ability to specify.

I'm thinking the same thing. It seems that whatever you need, whether hammers, culture, food, research, etc., there's always a more efficient way of transforming commerce to any of these things than using a corporation. Corps seem to just be a way of screwing up your opponents.

Well, I have provided screenshots that show directly how a corporation affects a city at a point late in the game versus State Property and a brief cost-benefit analysis. Why don't you people provide your own proofs instead of just screaming and shouting, "There's got to be a more efficient way!"?

How do you magically give a city a lot of extra hammers (like the 23 before multipliers in the example)? Attempting that using SP's bonuses might come with a pretty hefty cost and no significant benefit to your economy (as demonstrated). You want to rush buy things using the extra gpt you earn under SP? Then you'd need to switch to US, for which you'd have to abandon Representation. You might run into unhappiness in your top 5 cities and you would lose all the extra specialist beakers (this after maybe losing Mercantilism's free specialists by switching to SP). And, using the example again, even if you are able to rush buy that wonder and complete in about the same time without sacrificing research much, subsequently, spending hundreds/thousands of gold to save a few turns when building each unit isn't cost efficient at all. And switching to SP (if you are not Spiritual and don't have Cristo Redentor) and/or US might require your empire to go through anarchy that may last more than a turn. Have you taken into account the loss of empire-wide production/commerce during that period? And if your economy is running smoothly by this time, why should you take the trouble to destroy your cottages and kill your specialists in favour of workshops and watermills?

Looking at this case, there was no easier way to gain a lot of extra hammers in a few productive cities than corporations. All I needed to do was to found the corp with a GE (which could either partially build a wonder that I would be able to complete quickly anyway, initiate my first Golden Age if I hadn't done so - prophets are better suited for this, partially lightbulb a tech that I could research quickly anyway or settle for 3 extra hammers and beakers), build a few executives, spend a few hundred gold to spread the corp and then pay a certain amount of gold per turn. There's no need for civics switching, city plot reconfiguration, starvation and loss of specialists, all of which would require a vast amount of effort to manage with, ironically, no necessarily better result to justify the costs.

Thanks for the effort.
I think you pretty much show how you can make use of production from mining corp..... but just some points i would like to make....

1. I don't see foreign trading routes in your capital. Thus, i am now assuming that you didn't wait one turn or so for foreign trade routes to take effect. I would think it will make a bigger GPT than 600+.

Nothing changed, unfortunately. The only civ I had open borders with was running Mercantilism. Considering the circumstances of the game, where I had been at war with almost every civ on the map, foreign trade routes were not something that could be relied upon. How much extra commerce could they possibly account for anyway, especially since the capital was not coastal?

2. 11 turn dam vs 8 turn dam. With Cristo, you can US and switch back immediately? Does building that in 11 turns lose you the dam? Can you rush buy and still make it in 8 turns with the extra commerce?

It's not just the Dam, you know. I also wanted to build lots of units for a domination push after that. Like I said above, there was no easier way to get extra hammers for all this than corporations.

3. You are losing population in that revamped screenshot. Well... i think its only a 3 population lost (due to ur health issues) and the specialists lost wouldn't affect production at all. Is that hard to bear for an increase of 600 GPT?

Why should I have to? Why would I have needed the 600 gpt or the 1-2 turns of research saved per tech? I wanted greater production, and the corp was a win-win situation: I got it without having to lose my specialists and without missing out on much by not running SP.

4. I would imagine that you use MINING Inc for a long time now in the game... allowing you to build all those wonders. Is that essential in the first place for you to execute in that fashion while losing that much research? A 20+ turn difference mean ~20k research point with a gain of X hammers per turn in a few cities? Is that a viable option or a optimized option?

If you're looking at the game as a whole and not just that point, you must remember that the corp wasn't so expensive when it started out. And I was pursuing military techs for obvious reasons, so Communism was low on the priority while Railroads was high. As such, I had the ability to build Mining Inc. way before I had the ability to switch to State Property. It's not a question of whether I could have been getting the benefits of either State Property or corporations all this time.

You mentioned that you got to the point where you prevented your rivals from getting corporations. You are ahead in tech. You are playing it nicely, the way it should.... But doesn't that mean that WITHOUT the production from MINING Inc, you still win even the space-race? Grated it might be a slower win... but right now, if we are talking about the timing of a win... corporation doesn't come into issue. Isn't that right?

The way it should be? I don't know about that. It certainly is a way it can be played.

Yes, but I could also win without the last half a dozen GPs and without many of those wonders. I may or may not win a space race earlier because of the corp, but it would still be certain that the corp gave me some benefits that were worth its costs for a long time. If I had chosen to go for a space win and later discovered that inflation was becoming too large, I might then switch to State Property. But that wouldn't negate the fact that I had been reaping the benefits of the corp for many turns.

That said, if you are BEHIND in tech, how does the additional production with a drastic loss in research help you?

Of course it wouldn't, unless you are going to go full Monty. That would be an example of pursuing the wrong strategy in a given situation. Corps should be part of your strategy and not some random thing to be spammed.

 

[wayne07]

Yes, but I could also win without the last half a dozen GPs and without many of those wonders. I may or may not win a space race earlier because of the corp, but it would still be certain that the corp gave me some benefits that were worth its costs for a long time. If I had chosen to go for a space win and later discovered that inflation was becoming too large, I might then switch to State Property. But that wouldn't negate the fact that I had been reaping the benefits of the corp for many turns.



Of course it wouldn't, unless you are going to go full Monty. That would be an example of pursuing the wrong strategy in a given situation. Corps should be part of your strategy and not some random thing to be spammed.

Well, wrong strategy in a given situation is a tough sentence to understand.

To put simply, what i inferred is that the right strategy in a given situation is domination sub 1950s (or before the inflation kicks in). I think your point is the corporations is not unbalanced because the production is more valuable for your domination effort sub 1950s.

But still, i find it not so optimum to not use state property in your situation when i have 190+ corp payments + 120+ distance maintenance. Losing 300+ beakers raw is too large to ignore... the +1 specialists from merc and the additional production won't be worth it. I am normally alarmed when my research drops to 40%..... and will be insanely worried that the furious rival AI get robotics before i get composites/robotics. I still stick to my position corporation is not balanced... too much problems for too little benefits. I guess i have to learn how to finish my games/research sub 1950s for BTS. Funny though.... i keep getting pass 1950s for BTS victories. Something is quite wrong. lol..

 

[magicalsushi]

You want to rush buy things using the extra gpt you earn under SP? Then you'd need to switch to US, for which you'd have to abandon Representation. You might run into unhappiness in your top 5 cities and you would lose all the extra specialist beakers (this after maybe losing Mercantilism's free specialists by switching to SP).

A minor point: since SP already entails losing your Mercantilism free specialists in the first place, that makes it *less* of a problem to lose the free beakers from Representation, not more of a problem - you'll already have fewer specialists because you're not running Mercantilism, so you'll be losing fewer beakers if you need to switch to US. In any case, you've already told us that you weren't interested in science, you just wanted production. Furthermore, losing the extra Representation happiness would not have had any effect on the city shown in the screenshot. "What about other siutations", you may say - well, if we're going to talk about other situations, why shouldn't we consider one where SP would allow you to have some decent foreign trade routes? Speaking of trade routes, why did that fourth trade route vanish when you switched to SP? Were you actually running Free Market and not Mercantilism? If so, why isn't the AI spreading its corps into your cities?

 

[homan1983]

Well, I have provided screenshots that show directly how a corporation affects a city at a point late in the game versus State Property and a brief cost-benefit analysis. Why don't you people provide your own proofs instead of just screaming and shouting, "There's got to be a more efficient way!"?

no you haven't

You provided a screenshot showing State Property without Caste System.

You may as well show corporations without a courthouse then, or show corporation with 2 resources instead of the 20+ resources you have acquired.

Even without me mentioning these, don't you yourself think you're pulling the wool over people's eyes by doing that?

You have 4 gold, 3 iron, 3 copper, 3 coal and a silver - and yet we know that EVEN WITH THOSE a State Property with Caste System can compete, thats ridiculous - why even bother with corporations if even the guy who collects 20+ resources can barely compete with SP/CS

And with SP/CS you don't pay ther -66 which later becomes -100... -110 etc.
The SP also doesn't pay the distance to palace, which with inflation added can add up fro a few hundres per turn.
Finally SP also gives +10%



Surely even you think that a corporation with a lot of cottages and with enough resources should reward the player by being better than SP/CS - surely you don't think that the designers implemented a system where they are litterally saying: "Everyone is better off as communists in the modern age"

 

[aelf]

Well, wrong strategy in a given situation is a tough sentence to understand.

If you are behind in tech, value beakers more than hammers. If you think you can crush the opponent with a superior military and/or numbers, value hammers more than beakers. If you are behind in tech but chooses to emphasize on getting more hammers, it wouldn't work unless you think you can prevail with numbers.

To put simply, what i inferred is that the right strategy in a given situation is domination sub 1950s (or before the inflation kicks in). I think your point is the corporations is not unbalanced because the production is more valuable for your domination effort sub 1950s.

Yes.

But still, i find it not so optimum to not use state property in your situation when i have 190+ corp payments + 120+ distance maintenance. Losing 300+ beakers raw is too large to ignore... the +1 specialists from merc and the additional production won't be worth it. I am normally alarmed when my research drops to 40%..... and will be insanely worried that the furious rival AI get robotics before i get composites/robotics. I still stick to my position corporation is not balanced... too much problems for too little benefits. I guess i have to learn how to finish my games/research sub 1950s for BTS. Funny though.... i keep getting pass 1950s for BTS victories. Something is quite wrong. lol..

Have you had the experience of running Free Market or Mercantilism and needing more turns nett to research techs when switching to SP? Why? Because although SP saves on distance upkeep, you lose the commerce from extra trade routes or the beakers from free specialists. So switching to SP does not mean you gain beakers, even if you are able to raise your research %age.

My example is quite complicated because it is a point late in the game and I was playing on a small map. These of course skew the costs of the corp, making it look expensive. But even then, I believe I have established a case where the corp benefits can easily justify its costs, given the circumstances and my winning strategy. If I were to take an example from a game I played on a normal map at a point where Mining Inc. has recently been founded (Industrial Era) - there is no such game yet, by the way - the corp would look even better.

I believe it is optimal to be more advanced than the AI by the modern age (at least on Emperor+). If not running SP means somebody else will get to Composites or Robotics first, you will have a difficult end game. You are either nor developing your economy properly or not stifling the AIs enough.

 

[PieceOfMind]

But even then, I believe I have established a case where the corp benefits can easily justify its costs, given the circumstances and my winning strategy.

You may be right. But your strategy is very specific and as your screenshot shows it is 1934. The main issues people have been having with the inflation are for games that go roughly to 2000 or past that. The inflation problem is not so bad in your example.

EDIT
Nevermind. I asked for the inflation pic but it's a few pages back

 

[aelf]

Speaking of trade routes, why did that fourth trade route vanish when you switched to SP? Were you actually running Free Market and not Mercantilism?

Yup. Thanks for spotting that. I switched from one civic to another to take a look at the effects and took the screenshot under the wrong civic (it was 4 a.m. when I posted) That said, this actually demonstrates the merits of Free Market. But, in any case, let me redeem myself and correct that now...

[EDIT: I was reminded that the city did not have a courthouse, thanks to homan1983. I've added the courthouse and retaken the screenshots. Of course, the corp payments were reduced.]

Under Mercantilism, maximising hammer output:

Under Free Market, maximising hammer output:

Under State Property, maximising hammer output at a sustainable population level:

NOTE: The city has Angkor Wat, which is why I ran priests for the best possible outcome under every civic.

This time, I also turned off the espionage slider and raised the research slider to the maximum without going into the red. I hope you guys can get a clearer picture now.

It can be concluded from the new screenshots that under Mercantilism, the corps do take a higher toll on the economy. Do I still think that it's worth it? Yes. State Property only shaves two turns off the tech without giving me more extra gpt, and it still cannot match the production level of the corp. Inflation is rapidly eating away at cost effectiveness of the corp, but up to this point the corp is doing okay.

Free Market is the winner here. It's in somewhere in between SP and Mercantilism. Higher production compared to SP but lower costs compared to Merc. It produces more beakers in the city too. Why don't the AIs spread their corps to me? Like I said, they didn't get the chance to.

In any case, it doesn't change the fact that corporations can still work late in the game.

 

[aelf]

no you haven't

You provided a screenshot showing State Property without Caste System.

So SP has to be used with Caste System to match the production level a corp can give to a city?

 

[PieceOfMind]

aelf if you have no objections do you mind if I look at the save? I'm just interested to see it. I'll understand if you do mind however.

 

[homan1983]

So SP has to be used with Caste System to match the production level a corp can give to a city?

In a word yes.

Same way representation is great with mercantilism + Statue of liberty, and emancipation+free speech+universal suffrage go together.

So SP has to be used with Caste System to match the production level a corp can give to a city?

Try 2 things: compare corporations with just 4 resources and no courthouse (but still in free market) with state property.
Then try SP + CS vs courthouse + free market + lots of resources + free speech.

I get the feeling you actually tried the Caste System combo but because the result doesn't correlate with your view you've decided not to publish it.

What I would appreciate greatly however is if you could post the saved game so that I may take a loot and analyse it.

regards, Homan

 

[homan1983]

In any case, it doesn't change the fact that corporations can still work late in the game.

What it means is that corporations can only be run in a few cities as you said, whereas SP+CS affects EVERY city.

Furthermore SP+CS gives many other benefits AND opens up 2 more civics (you no longer have to-or are strongly recommended to- run free speech or Universal suffrage )

To top it all off, corporations needs you to go around and aquire many resources, be the first to found the corporation AND spend at least one GP which you would probably have to have saved for hundreds of years to be guaranteed.

 

[aelf]

I get the feeling you actually tried the Caste System combo but because the result doesn't correlate with your view you've decided not to publish it.

Please. I guess you haven't been in these forums long enough

I did try SP with Caste System, and it was able to match the production level of the corp (208 hammers). But that means forfeiting the benefits of Emancipation, which are difficult to show. If I post a big shiny screenshot of SP and Caste System, people are just going to point to that and say that it's superior without even taking Emancipation into account since they don't see its benefits. Is that a fair comparison?

 

[aelf]

What it means is that corporations can only be run in a few cities as you said, whereas SP+CS affects EVERY city.

Furthermore SP+CS gives many other benefits AND opens up 2 more civics (you no longer have to-or are strongly recommended to- run free speech or Universal suffrage )

See? You are talking about the other benefits of SP and Caste System without taking into account the benefits of other civics that you can run with corporations.

Mining Inc. allowed me to boost the production of a few cities without locking me into a particular set of civics. That means I could run Mercantilism, Free Market, Environmentalism, Slavery, Emancipation or Serfdom, as I saw fit.

To top it all off, corporations needs you to go around and aquire many resources, be the first to found the corporation AND spend at least one GP which you would probably have to have saved for hundreds of years to be guaranteed.

I don't think you should be planning to get a particular corp for a long time. Just go with the flow. You get a particular GP late in the game, if it can found a corp that suits you, why not? I believe this applies to many other aspects of the game as well, such as wonders and other late game GP usage. You can plan for it, but then you better make sure your calculations are correct and your plan is efficient.

 

[homan1983]

Please. I guess you haven't been in these forums long enough

Nice But I think I was in the forums before you, its just I don't post about any subject and tend to read a lot more (even your previous posts were great).

I did try SP with Caste System, and it was able to match the production level of the corp (208 hammers). But that means forfeiting the benefits of Emancipation, which are difficult to show. If I post a big shiny screenshot of SP and Caste System, people are just going to point to that and say that it's superior without even taking Emancipation into account since they don't see its benefits. Is that a fair comparison?

The same way you say Corporation is superior without taking into account that you have:
1) the HQ
2) A courthouse
3) Free speech + emancipation to pay for corp
4) traded a HUGE amount of resources

So why did you decide to post every combination except SP+CS? Isn't the truth/reality of whether the underlying mechanic needs some changes more important than me winning or you winning?


Lets look at it this way:

- by your own account SP+CS is equal or great than the corporation
- but we also know the sp+cs won't incur the 66-110 per turn free
- and we also know that you don't need to selectively run sp+cs in a few cities but that it'll apply to all cities
- we know that a few hundred per turn is saved from
"distance from palace maintenance" under SP
- that CS has a mojor benefit of allowing unlimited artist/scientist/merchant
- we know that with SP your enemies can run corp in your cities and hence their is cut
- SP also gives +10%
- you don't need to trade with everyone and pay literally hundreds of per turn to them to get extra sources of copper/iron/coal/silver/gold to increase the effect of corporations
- you don't have to save a GP for hundreds of years
- you get to free up the "free speech" and "universal suffrage" civic lines allowing you to gain other benefits
- you don't have to grow cottages for hundreds of turns


Cottage economies should always be slightly better than specialist economies - because a pillaging of cottages destroys them, and it takes time to build up cottage economies (US, UK, France etc. having towns in their country instead of lots of workshops/farms [USSR/China ?]) so you can't suddenly change direction, whereas a pillaged farm or workshop is immediately rebuilt.

And this WAS the case in civ4 vanilla/warlords.

A cottage under "free speech" and Univ. Suffrage gave 1 + 7. And assuming 1hammer= 3 commerce we take that to mean that each tile gave 10

A SE however relied on post-biology farm with representation. Under this government, you would get +2 per tile which would feed 1 specialist. This could get either +6:commerce [scientist/merchant] or at best +9 [engineer +2hammer and +3science adds up to 9]. However engineers aren't so easily to hire and are very limited.

Also the CE is much more fluid, 70% of its income is in the form of which has the advantage of being VERY FLUID. You can use the commerce as science, culture, espionage or as gold --> hammer (3 buys you 1 using rush-buying under universal suffrage and you can even direct it to any city which needs it instead of your powerful cities)
As a counterpoint, a SE can sort-of set individual city tax/science/culture/espionage in the form of the specialist they hire. So in a Oxford city you can hire pure Scientists and in a WallStreet city pure merchants and in iron works pure engineers.

I don't think you should be planning to get a particular corp for a long time. Just go with the flow. You get a particular GP late in the game, if it can found a corp that suits you, why not? I believe this applies to many other aspects of the game as well, such as wonders and other late game GP usage. You can plan for it, but then you better make sure your calculations are correct and your plan is efficient.

Perhaps, but I like to plan ahead, the same way I usually plan to myself "later I'll go communist SP+CS+Police State and take over the continent", I'd like to plan: "later ill go free market + free speech + univ. suffrage and go corporation economy"

See? You are talking about the other benefits of SP and Caste System without taking into account the benefits of other civics that you can run with corporations.

You're welcome to compare all the property civics, but right now SP+CS trumps them all UNLESS you take into account that the others can run corporations.

What is the point of +2 hammers [mercantilism engineer] when you lose all foreign trade routes [SP doesnt] ? The point is that its not just +2hammers, you also get corporations.

What is +1 trade route? Its nothing, unless you take into account corporations.

Without taking into account corporations then I think the answer will be heavily skewed towards SP+CS

 

[aelf]

Nice But I think I was in the forums before you, its just I don't post about any subject and tend to read a lot more (even your previous posts were great).

I've been lurking since 2003

So my posts now are not great?

The same way you say Corporation is superior without taking into account that you have:
1) the HQ

Of course! I'm not saying that some foreign corp is really good at that point in the game. Foreign corps are almost always harmful because you can't place them selectively I see the corp bonus as some sort of consolation for the gold you have to pay

2) A courthouse

Nope. That was one of my first few games and out of habit I did not build a courthouse in the capital. And now that you remind me, I have to take a new set of screenshots with a courthouse there :argh:

3) Free speech + emancipation to pay for corp

I don't have to run them to get production, though.

4) traded a HUGE amount of resources

I did not. I owned them

So why did you decide to post every combination except SP+CS? Isn't the truth/reality of whether the underlying mechanic needs some changes more important than me winning or you winning?

I don't care if I win this argument or not. I haven't won most of the arguments I'm involved in on these forums. I'm just giving you my perspective of it. I understand people might have been all excited about this feature, and when it's not quite as good as they thought, they immediately see red. But no, corporations do not need to be changed. Maybe inflation does, but that's where it has to stop.

Lets look at it this way:

- by your own account SP+CS is equal or great than the corporation
- but we also know the sp+cs won't incur the 66-110 per turn free
- and we also know that you don't need to selectively run sp+cs in a few cities but that it'll apply to all cities
- we know that a few hundred per turn is saved from
"distance from palace maintenance" under SP
- that CS has a mojor benefit of allowing unlimited artist/scientist/merchant
- we know that with SP your enemies can run corp in your cities and hence their is cut
- SP also gives +10%
- you don't need to trade with everyone and pay literally hundreds of per turn to them to get extra sources of copper/iron/coal/silver/gold to increase the effect of corporations
- you don't have to save a GP for hundreds of years
- you get to free up the "free speech" and "universal suffrage" civic lines allowing you to gain other benefits
- you don't have to grow cottages for hundreds of turns

Sorry, but you are going far off track here. First of all, there so many assumptions that you are making here that I don't have time to answer them all. Let me answer the glaring ones: SP saving you distance upkeep and giving +10% hammers - those are already accounted for; trading for resources - can't you get those resources for yourself?; I already said don't save a GP for hundreds of years; do you really want to do a CE vs. SE here?