Why America's education sucks

[kochman]

Connecticut, Torrington and I assume Ct has a bit better standard than other poorer states.

It goes down to school by school...

For the record, I believe CT has the highest average salary, making it "the richest" of sorts...
However, Fairfax County, VA is considered to be amongst the top school districts in the country, not sure where Torrington places.

Funny, isn't Torrington a really small place? I know a guy from there actually...

 

[Cutlass]

Connecticut, Torrington and I assume Ct has a bit better standard than other poorer states.

Yes and no. Connecticut is a rich state. And much of the population lives in nice suburbs. In those places the public schools tend to be pretty good to very good. However, Connecticut also has a number of small and poor cities. The state had for decades exclusionary zoning policies that locked up most of the poor and colored in a handful of cities, and then cut them off from a decent education and jobs. Essentially just abandoned them.

With predictable results.

So if you happen to live in one of these poor areas, you can't expect much out of the schools. They have long ranged from worthless to utter crap.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Its one of the suburban places, only 7% live under the poverty line.

Torrington was named by Bizjournals as the number one "Dreamtown" (micropolitan statistical area) out of ten in the United States to live in.[2]

 

[Cutlass]

Torrington is actually a gentrified town. It's what we call here an "old mill town". Which is to say that it was a small factory town in the 19th century that lost that during the 20th. So it had a poor town center surrounded by suburbs. But over recent decades the town center largely went through suburban renewal. So the well off decide it's a nice place to live and the poor are priced out.


According to one ranking series I see, Torrington doesn't rank that well state wide.

One issue in CT is that schools are mainly funded by the high property tax. And every town is individually on its own. This hurts poor areas, but it also is a problem for small towns. Wealthy and large schools tend to do better than wealthy and small or poor and large.

 

[madviking]

TOne issue in CT is that schools are mainly funded by the high property tax. And every town is individually on its own. This hurts poor areas, but it also is a problem for small towns. Wealthy and large schools tend to do better than wealthy and small or poor and large.

Joke's on you, we have that in Virginia too!

That's why Fairfax's schools are so good...

 

[kochman]

Joke's on you, we have that in Virginia too!

That's why Fairfax's schools are so good...

Almost every county in the country pays for education via property tax, at least partially, if I am not mistaken.

 

[Cutlass]

County property tax is different from town property tax. Connecticut counties have no taxing authority.

 

[kochman]

County property tax is different from town property tax. Connecticut counties have no taxing authority.

Ah, the township thingy?

 

[Cutlass]

Not townships. Just home rule and localism taken to extremes. Everything in politics is "169 cities and towns this"
and "169 cities and towns that". And other than the maps the weather forecasters use, almost no one mentions the counties at all. There are some efforts at regional cooperation. But most of it is fairly recent and fairly shallow. What that results in is a lot of inefficient uses of resources. The schools are only one aspect of that.

 

[kochman]

Not townships. Just home rule and localism taken to extremes. Everything in politics is "169 cities and towns this"
and "169 cities and towns that". And other than the maps the weather forecasters use, almost no one mentions the counties at all. There are some efforts at regional cooperation. But most of it is fairly recent and fairly shallow. What that results in is a lot of inefficient uses of resources. The schools are only one aspect of that.

Well, it is a densely populated, small state... having counties run things is almost like the state gov running things in CT I guess... same W RI

 

[Cutlass]

It wasn't the smallness of the state. It was the smallness of the towns. Go back a couple 100 years, and every town more or less stood on its own. They just never changed that.

 

[Darkwind]

You can keep your test results... the east asian method encourages a complete and total absence of childhood that I think is terrible, personally.

Finland doesn't force their kids to be slaves, and they do fine.

Despite our bad grades, we still keep inventing stuff here in America... (then the asians make it smaller and better).

I wouldn't come to conclusion so quickly; especially with the "complete and total absence of childhood" part. (Clearly it is not true, or we would all have committed suicide.) If you watch those TV dramas or movies from East Asia then you will realize we do have a lot of activities, sports and entertainment during our school years. Let me share you a little secret: girl dating game actually teach you more about Japanese education system than any western media source

As you point out, Finland has a very successful education system, with good grades and a more relaxed and happy learning environment. US education really cannot use the "we do not slave our children" as excuse for having bad results in global test ranking. (Yes, test result is not everything, but that's the most objective way when you need to compare among different countries.)

The fact that USA has more inventors and innovation (iPhones!! ) has a lot of causes outside education. First of all you must not be poor, you need to have spare time to think and be imaginative. If you work in a factory making iPhone everyday in China, you probably will not be the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. Secondly, in many countries, your invention will 100% be copied by your neighbor/friends/relatives/government/ random guy who saw your invention.

Another example will be myself: I studied in Hong Kong and travel to US to study for bachelor degree. My major was in physics and I simply cannot find school in East Asia that has the infrastructure to support my subject (nanotech center, particle accelerator nearby, telescope...etc). Hardware is a very important part in invention besides education.

 

[kochman]

I wouldn't come to conclusion so quickly; especially with the "complete and total absence of childhood" part. (Clearly it is not true, or we would all have committed suicide.) If you watch those TV dramas or movies from East Asia then you will realize we do have a lot of activities, sports and entertainment during our school years. Let me share you a little secret: girl dating game actually teach you more about Japanese education system than any western media source

As you point out, Finland has a very successful education system, with good grades and a more relaxed and happy learning environment. US education really cannot use the "we do not slave our children" as excuse for having bad results in global test ranking. (Yes, test result is not everything, but that's the most objective way when you need to compare among different countries.)

Documentaries and 1st hand accounts from my friends who teach over there... Specifically teaching in Korea... they have virtually no childhood. I can't remember the specifics, but it was very sad.
I think the super work ethic, while it is beneficial to the economy, produces way too much stress... I remember reading about heart attack rates despite eating so much fish, etc.

Regarding USA/Finland... that is exactly my point! We need to take notes and impliment things from other societies that work (without too extreme a cost to the chil'ren)...

 

[Takhisis]

I wouldn't come to conclusion so quickly; especially with the "complete and total absence of childhood" part. (Clearly it is not true, or we would all have committed suicide.) If you watch those TV dramas or movies from East Asia then you will realize we do have a lot of activities, sports and entertainment during our school years. Let me share you a little secret: girl dating game actually teach you more about Japanese education system than any western media source

As you point out, Finland has a very successful education system, with good grades and a more relaxed and happy learning environment. US education really cannot use the "we do not slave our children" as excuse for having bad results in global test ranking. (Yes, test result is not everything, but that's the most objective way when you need to compare among different countries.)

The fact that USA has more inventors and innovation (iPhones!! ) has a lot of causes outside education. First of all you must not be poor, you need to have spare time to think and be imaginative. If you work in a factory making iPhone everyday in China, you probably will not be the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. Secondly, in many countries, your invention will 100% be copied by your neighbor/friends/relatives/government/ random guy who saw your invention.

Another example will be myself: I studied in Hong Kong and travel to US to study for bachelor degree. My major was in physics and I simply cannot find school in East Asia that has the infrastructure to support my subject (nanotech center, particle accelerator nearby, telescope...etc). Hardware is a very important part in invention besides education.

Two things: one, the percentage of people in the USA who actually do hard science is quite small (don't have the figures on me right now). Remember that you have over 300 million inhabitants, so even three million scientists is one percent.

The second thing is, you import a lot of your talent. From Africa, Europe, Canada, Latin America, Asia, wherever. People always come to the US. Immigration, despite whatever Arizona Republicans may want you to ask, is what keeps the US (sort of) working.

 

[Quackers]

Britain likes to steal nurses from poor, devoloping third world countries too.

 

[Cutlass]

Britain likes to steal nurses from poor, devoloping third world countries too.

That's about the only place you can get them.

 

[Quackers]

We got some from Finland once. Diana Abbott MP didn't like them tho

 

[DroopyTofu]

I agree that alot of it is that classes are too easy. Personally, I think they need to pick the students that put forth the effort and focus on them and ignore the ones that will never develope. Let's be blunt. Some kids don't care about school and no amount of special attention will help them or change their opinions. Too often, I've seen classes taught to the level of the lowest student in the room, leaving everyone else bored and they eventually stop caring because they are not challenged or engaged. I think focusing on the students with higher chances of success instead of the least motivated students would go a long way towards helping imporove things. Of course, I'm slightly biased because I have always been one of the students at the top.

 

[Darkwind]

I agree that alot of it is that classes are too easy. Personally, I think they need to pick the students that put forth the effort and focus on them and ignore the ones that will never develope. Let's be blunt. Some kids don't care about school and no amount of special attention will help them or change their opinions. Too often, I've seen classes taught to the level of the lowest student in the room, leaving everyone else bored and they eventually stop caring because they are not challenged or engaged. I think focusing on the students with higher chances of success instead of the least motivated students would go a long way towards helping improve things. Of course, I'm slightly biased because I have always been one of the students at the top.

You are right and this is happening everywhere, but the American schools seems particularly vulnerable to this "average down" effect. (note, my opinion only, I only study 2 years in US high school system, rest is in local school in HK.) In US classroom, you have much more teacher-student interaction and also MUCH more group discussion/activity; this sound all good and happy, but it also means the whole class is bound to the speed of the slowest learning student.

During my years in local school, we have larger class size and the teacher basically read out all the content, discussion is rare and you are not allowed to talk in class. (but you can question questions from teacher or ask questions yourself)

The tests and exam will separate out the smart from the less gifted; for example, my class is E class, meaning the "elite" class; all my classmates are the top 45 student out of the whole form of 330 students. And within the class, if you feel that you are behind, that student will usually use private tutoring or go to cram schools.

Cram school tutor can achieve celebrity status in HK, its quite hilarious
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cram_schools_in_Hong_Kong

Personally I do believe it is happier to study in US-style high school, but I feel I learn a lot slower.

 

[carmen510]

Regarding USA/Finland... that is exactly my point! We need to take notes and impliment things from other societies that work (without too extreme a cost to the chil'ren)...

The main difference between Finland's education system and ours is that Finland has stricter criteria for teachers with regards to their education (I believe it's a Master's degree in their chosen subject for a permanent job). In exchange, teachers are compensated far better (part of the reason is that there are fewer teachers in the system), have more say in how educational reform is achieved, and are granted considerable autonomy in the classroom (aside from teaching the core curriculum). Management is also top-notch.

Finland also provides free and mandatory public education, paid entirely by the government (rather than having teachers pay for school supplies). The government has also placed a high priority on education and there is political consensus on this issue.

This is obviously the key problem in implementation of a Finland-like system in the United States: A substantial portion of the population don't really want to add additional financial burdens on the government, trust our government (or our teachers and school administrative staff for that matter) on matters related to education, or provide the federal government with more say in our children's education. We also don't really have a political consensus on the matter of education; we can't even agree on whether or not creationism should be taught in schools (please don't take up this line of argument, I'm just using it as an example), let alone how to reform our system.