Why are Western civs so seldomly scientific?

[Arent11]

Don't forget Japan. They got a science boost in Civ VI which was well deserved IMO.

Yeah, ok, also Japan.

 

[Ornen]

The Abbasids are listed as scientific, I think, so I guess they have some mild science advantage.

I'm talking about Civ 6 as that's our best reference. They've only revealed 3 Euro civs total for Civ 7 so not much to talk about on that front.

My point is I don't think science is underrepresented among western civs, at least in Civ 6.

 

[rocksinmypath]

This is really not true in Civ 6. Scotland, Netherlands, Spain, and Australia (unless we're excluding it because it's not in Europe) all receive direct science bonuses, and if you expand the definition of a "scientific civ" to a civ that is particularly good at attaining science victories, you can also include Germany, England, etc. as others mentioned.

 

[Arent11]

I'm talking about Civ 6 as that's our best reference. They've only revealed 3 Euro civs total for Civ 7 so not much to talk about on that front.

My point is I don't think science is underrepresented among western civs, at least in Civ 6.

I just meant the "science is very strong in civ" & "standard civs shouldn't have strong science" statement. I suspect that the ages/resetting of tech will prevent such snowballing.

I don't know the advantages the Abbasids will have & I suspect that it will be similar to the civ 6 faith science combination that one civ had (Was it the Arabs?).

And yes, of course we haven't seen most of the Euro civs yet & it could be that they have science advantages.

If the age resetting nerfs science snowballing effectively, I think standard civs can have science & cheesy options like Scotland are not needed.

 

[Atlas627]

I did not mean to imply that you said anything ridiculous. I just wanted to point out huge scientific advances that dwarf anything Babylon or Korea created.

So, Babylon and Korea can be science civs, I don't mind. I merely think that the extreme advances in the 19th, 20th century should somehow be represented.

I see what you're saying. In the previous games, a Civ was representing some societies at a specific point in time, while others were more general and enduring. Korea and Babylon were easy candidates for Science because the height of their society was a specific scientific leap. Now that we'll have Ages, all Civs are a specific point in time, so the Normans can do culture and seafaring and Britain can do Industrialization and Commerce, or France can do Science and Culture.

Your thread title asked why Western Civs are [historically, in the series] seldomly scientific. There are many reasons, which have been mentioned. Those reasons mostly do not apply in Civ7, so we shall see what happens.

 

[Siptah]

The thing, as many noted, is that Britain, France, and Germany can go in all directions: science, culture, military, industrial, expansionist, diplomatic. All three are also good candidates for unique great people.

My guess is that the French Empire will go culture/diplomatic, Britain Expansionist/Scientific, and Germany Industrial/Militarist in civ 7.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Honestly for France specifically I'd say they aren't really more scientific than the European average, but culturally they're very impressive. Definitely would prefer culture over science for them.

If I actually think about who should be scientific in Europe... I'd probably say England, maybe Germany. But I find it difficult.

You are right and I also think they do make more sense as cultural. I just wouldn't rule them out as possibly being scientific, I mean Humankind did make them. However in Civ they have two traits, so I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't scientific and cultural.
I suppose they could be militaristic, but I only see that happening if Napoleon is the leader.

This is really not true in Civ 6. Scotland, Netherlands, Spain, and Australia (unless we're excluding it because it's not in Europe) all receive direct science bonuses, and if you expand the definition of a "scientific civ" to a civ that is particularly good at attaining science victories, you can also include Germany, England, etc. as others mentioned.

Maybe it's just me, but I've always considered Netherlands as more culture oriented. Or at least in my games they acquire way more culture due to thier trade routes.

Britain Expansionist/Scientific,

I thought of this as well. I wanted to double check and make sure that Industrialist wasn't a trait and it's not.

 

[Arent11]

This is really not true in Civ 6. Scotland, Netherlands, Spain, and Australia (unless we're excluding it because it's not in Europe) all receive direct science bonuses, and if you expand the definition of a "scientific civ" to a civ that is particularly good at attaining science victories, you can also include Germany, England, etc. as others mentioned.

Do you mean adjacency bonuses that apply to all kinds of districts, not just to science?

I thinks that's pretty different from Korea's unique campus or Babylons Eureka advantage. Those are direct science bonuses in my view.

But yes, you can argue that some of these civs could pursue a scientific victory with their adjacency bonuses (or cultural, money, faith etc.).

 

[Arent11]

The thing, as many noted, is that Britain, France, and Germany can go in all directions: science, culture, military, industrial, expansionist, diplomatic. All three are also good candidates for unique great people.

My guess is that the French Empire will go culture/diplomatic, Britain Expansionist/Scientific, and Germany Industrial/Militarist in civ 7.

Would be fine.

 

[Arent11]

I thought of this as well. I wanted to double check and make sure that Industrialist wasn't a trait and it's not.

It's not? I have to look that up.

Then Germany can't be industrialist?

Mmh. Interesting.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

So far, most of our Civ VII information is from the Antiquity Age with a few bits from Exploration.

In those Ages, 'Europe' was not particularly Scientific. Most Greek science was a rehash and borrowing from the Middle East - and the really dramatic advances were the result of the melding of Middle Eastern and Greek thought at the great Mouseion in Alexandria which produced a flood of works on astronomy, geography, engineering, scientific principles, mathematics, medicine, etc.

The Romans, famously, were great at Applied Science = Engineering, but not so much on the pure science side.

After the Roman Empire, Europe pretty much dabbled in applications like new agricultural systems and application of water power to processes both agricultural and industrial, but any 'take off' in scientific endeavors was a good 800 years later, and then was based on imported science from the Far East (iron casting, gunpowder) added to long-term incremental advances in Navigation (Cog, Holk, Ballinger, Caravel hulls and sails).

The massive Leap in scientific advance in Europe comes after the Industrial Revolution, and was a by-product of mass literacy, better education because factories needed somebody to repair and work the machinery, and intense competition in a cut-throat Capitalist economic system. - And you might notice that all of those spread to the rest of the world after WWII, so the Scientific Advances are now far more spread out globally since 1945 - and so are th Social Problems connected and related to them.

 

[rocksinmypath]

Do you mean adjacency bonuses that apply to all kinds of districts, not just to science?

I thinks that's pretty different from Korea's unique campus or Babylons Eureka advantage. Those are direct science bonuses in my view.

But yes, you can argue that some of these civs could pursue a scientific victory with their adjacency bonuses (or cultural, money, faith etc.).

By direct science bonus, I mean it's explicitly stated in their description that they receive more science. By the way, I totally forgot to mention Portugal, so there are at least two European civs (Portugal and Scotland) that I think most people will agree get direct science bonuses.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Do you mean adjacency bonuses that apply to all kinds of districts, not just to science?

I thinks that's pretty different from Korea's unique campus or Babylons Eureka advantage. Those are direct science bonuses in my view.

But yes, you can argue that some of these civs could pursue a scientific victory with their adjacency bonuses (or cultural, money, faith etc.).

Scotland is the only one of those who has a direct boost to science in their abilities. If you place Spain's missions right, it can produce a lot of science. Also, Portugal mentioned above.

 

[rocksinmypath]

By the way, Greece (well, Macedon) also receives a small science bonus from Basilikoi Paides when producing units (I know that's not much), and a much more significant one in free eurekas from conquering cities with campuses and encampments. I know Macedon is domination-oriented, but then again, if we were looking at things that way, it'd be weird to not call Germany and England scientific.

 

[Arent11]

So far, most of our Civ VII information is from the Antiquity Age with a few bits from Exploration.

In those Ages, 'Europe' was not particularly Scientific. Most Greek science was a rehash and borrowing from the Middle East - and the really dramatic advances were the result of the melding of Middle Eastern and Greek thought at the great Mouseion in Alexandria which produced a flood of works on astronomy, geography, engineering, scientific principles, mathematics, medicine, etc.

The Romans, famously, were great at Applied Science = Engineering, but not so much on the pure science side.

After the Roman Empire, Europe pretty much dabbled in applications like new agricultural systems and application of water power to processes both agricultural and industrial, but any 'take off' in scientific endeavors was a good 800 years later, and then was based on imported science from the Far East (iron casting, gunpowder) added to long-term incremental advances in Navigation (Cog, Holk, Ballinger, Caravel hulls and sails).

The massive Leap in scientific advance in Europe comes after the Industrial Revolution, and was a by-product of mass literacy, better education because factories needed somebody to repair and work the machinery, and intense competition in a cut-throat Capitalist economic system. - And you might notice that all of those spread to the rest of the world after WWII, so the Scientific Advances are now far more spread out globally since 1945 - and so are th Social Problems connected and related to them.

Yes, Western culture has become global.

I think Greece was "philosophical" (=scientific) in some civ part. But you're right, we don't know the modern Euro civs yet.

 

[Arent11]

By direct science bonus, I mean it's explicitly stated in their description that they receive more science. By the way, I totally forgot to mention Portugal, so there are at least two European civs (Portugal and Scotland) that I think most people will agree get direct science bonuses.

Ok, so Portugal and Scotland. That's fair. Although I wouldn't associate them as the major/first civs with Industrialization & Enlightenment.

I suspect they didn't want to give the initial civs France/England/Italy/Germany science advantages and therefore settled for the later added Scotland & Portugal.

 

[Arent11]

By the way, Greece (well, Macedon) also receives a small science bonus from Basilikoi Paides when producing units (I know that's not much), and a much more significant one in free eurekas from conquering cities with campuses and encampments. I know Macedon is domination-oriented, but then again, if we were looking at things that way, it'd be weird to not call Germany and England scientific.

Well, a lot of civs have general bonuses that can be geared towards one or the other victory. That's a design decision.

I'm not a big fan of that since it takes away "flavor" - I want to play warrior civs, science civs etc. But this is subjective.

 

[rocksinmypath]

I'm not a big fan of that since it takes away "flavor" - I want to play warrior civs, science civs etc. But this is subjective.

I agree, to an extent. I prefer civs that are thematically more focused, but in practice, I think they actually hurt the game. For example, Sweden gets bonuses in culture, domination and science, but in any given game, you'd normally choose to play to one of those three sets of bonuses and just sort of ignore the other ones. Having a wide range of bonuses ends up making civs more replayable. On the contrary, a very focused civ like Maya is really restricted in how you can play them, so they're not as replayable.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Ok, so Portugal and Scotland. That's fair. Although I wouldn't associate them as the major/first civs with Industrialization & Enlightenment.

I suspect they didn't want to give the initial civs France/England/Italy/Germany science advantages and therefore settled for the later added Scotland & Portugal.

Honestly many of the scientific achievements of the British Empire was thanks to people from Scotland, and not just England, so it fits. Besides they are two halves of an overall encompassing "British" civ that we are bound to get in Civ 7.

 

[Arent11]

I agree, to an extent. I prefer civs that are thematically more focused, but in practice, I think they actually hurt the game. For example, Sweden gets bonuses in culture, domination and science, but in any given game, you'd normally choose to play to one of those three sets of bonuses and just sort of ignore the other ones. Having a wide range of bonuses ends up making civs more replayable. On the contrary, a very focused civ like Maya is really restricted in how you can play them, so they're not as replayable.

I get where you are coming from but I like the more iconic/focused civs of Alpha Centauri You had a production civ, an espionage civ, a science civ, an economy civ, a diplomacy civ, an exploration civ, a military civ. They all had distinct philosophies and play styles.

In civ 6 the civs feel a bit muddled. As you said, I begin ignoring parts of their bonuses. And to be honest, I always play them in the same way