Why are Western civs so seldomly scientific?

[Boris Gudenuf]

Honestly many of the scientific achievements of the British Empire was thanks to people from Scotland, and not just England, so it fits. Besides they are two halves of an overall encompassing "British" civ that we are bound to get in Civ 7.

Book title from many years ago: How the Scots Invented the Modern World, by Arthur Herman, which makes precisely that point. Title is slightly (okay, More than slightly) OP, but he makes a good case and its a delightful read whether you agree or not.

 

[Arent11]

Book title from many years ago: How the Scots Invented the Modern World, by Arthur Herman, which makes precisely that point. Title is slightly (okay, More than slightly) OP, but he makes a good case and its a delightful read whether you agree or not.

Since we might get a "Britain" (We do?), I'll of course immediately abuse that argument to demand a scientific seafaring Britain

Was Scotland independent at the time of industrialization? I would need to look that up now.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Since we might get a "Britain" (We do?), I'll of course immediately abuse that argument to demand a scientific seafaring Britain

Was Scotland independent at the time of industrialization? I would need to look that up now.

Not, officially after 1 May 1707 when they were combined with England in the "Kingdom of Great Britain", but there was some serious discussion of the entire matter in 1715 and 1745 . . .

 

[Patine]

Not, officially after 1 May 1707 when they were combined with England in the "Kingdom of Great Britain", but there was some serious discussion of the entire matter in 1715 and 1745 . . .

Actually, the Jacobites, despite having a stronghold of support in the Scottish Highland (and a few English Tories in Parliament) still laid their pretense of rule to that of the House of Stuart - England (with Wales attached), Scotand, and Ireland in Personal Union, and Colonies as of that point, not just Scotland.

 

[Arent11]

Not, officially after 1 May 1707 when they were combined with England in the "Kingdom of Great Britain", but there was some serious discussion of the entire matter in 1715 and 1745 . . .

Ah, thanks I was too lazy to look that up.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Since we might get a "Britain" (We do?), I'll of course immediately abuse that argument to demand a scientific seafaring Britain

Was Scotland independent at the time of industrialization? I would need to look that up now.

Ed keeps mentioning in interviews specifically modern Britian, not England.

No Scotland was not independent then. That's why the joke that Scotland was just another British civ is warranted, because the only attributes about them when they were fully independent was Robert the Bruce. Even their Highlander UU was modeled on the ones in the British army.

 

[Arent11]

Britain Expansionist/Scientific, and Germany Industrial/Militarist in civ 7.

Ok, seafaring and industrial does apparently not exist as attributes:

Cultural
Diplomatic
Economic
Expansionist
Militaristic
Scientific

So I guess Expansionist/Scientific or Economic would fit Britain And Germany Militarist Scientific or Economic, maybe also a more peaceful economic/scientific.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Ed keeps mentioning in interviews specifically modern Britian, not England.

No Scotland was not independent then. That's why the joke that Scotland was just another British civ is warranted, because the only attributes about them when they were fully independent was Robert the Bruce. Even their Highlander UU was modeled on the ones in the British army.

Yep. Except for Brucie the rest of the 'Civ' was strictly Post-1707, and the Highlander unit, at least as a graphic, was strictly early 1800s Napoleonic Wars British Army. Given the potential, a serious disappointment.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Actually, the Jacobites, despite having a stronghold of support in the Scottish Highland (and a few English Tories in Parliament) still laid their pretense of rule to that of the House of Stuart - England (with Wales attached), Scotand, and Ireland in Personal Union, and Colonies as of that point, not just Scotland.

True, but unfortunately far too few other people in Scotland, England or Wales agreed with them . . .

 

[Ornen]

Ok, seafaring and industrial does apparently not exist as attributes:

Cultural
Diplomatic
Economic
Expansionist
Militaristic
Scientific

So I guess Expansionist/Scientific or Economic would fit Britain And Germany Militarist Scientific or Economic, maybe also a more peaceful economic/scientific.

Industrial = Economic
Seafaring can fit Expansionist, Militaristic, or Economic, depending on what you're up to at sea

though I also don't think these attributes are going to be super significant, as any civ can take any ability from the attribute trees

 

[Arent11]

Industrial = Economic
Seafaring can fit Expansionist, Militaristic, or Economic, depending on what you're up to at sea

though I also don't think these attributes are going to be super significant, as any civ can take any ability from the attribute trees

Yes, but I'm not sure yet what "affinity" for a certain tree means Maybe this is already common knowledge and I just missed it. I suspect you might get a discount on leveling up or something(?)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Industrial = Economic

Considering Egypt is Economic, I agree.

 

[Arent11]

France Cultural Diplomatic
England Expansionist Scientific
Germany Militarist Economic



Or

England Expansionist Economic
Germany Militarist Scientific

Or

Germany Economic Scientific

 

[Maledict]

Also, I suppose the industrial revolution in Europe was somewhat of a shared achievement, as opposed to a single civilization progressing beyond it's neighbors technologically.

Actually the Industrial Revolution was exactly this. Great Britain industrialised almost a century ahead of anywhere else in the world - it was actually really unique how it didn’t spread for so long. It was an extremely specific change that happened in the UK, and then a long time later spread. It’s the main reason the UK was so powerful during the time period, and was known as “the workshop of the world” etc.

 

[Thormodr]

The Western World was outpaced scientifically by China for most of its history. Therefore, I don't have a problem with Western Civs not being scientific in previous Civ games.

With the new ages mechanic, however, I'd say that more Western Civs should be scientific if they are in the modern age.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

1. I could see Greece having a science-focus, but I would personally associate the Greeks more with wonders and theatre
2. While England did have Newton and other notable scientists, I would still consider England more of a colonialism & espionage civ
3. Germany did have a science-focus way back in Civ 3 (probably as a reference to howlitzers and panzers), and I can definitely see it make a return. Still, I would personally have Germany focus mostly on coal and realpolitik
4. Others here have pointed out that France has always been more prolific in culture than in anything else. On top of that, there's also the fact that no other country on the planet has won as many battles as the French, so that may be something to look into

 

[Leyrann]

Ok, seafaring and industrial does apparently not exist as attributes:

Cultural
Diplomatic
Economic
Expansionist
Militaristic
Scientific

So I guess Expansionist/Scientific or Economic would fit Britain And Germany Militarist Scientific or Economic, maybe also a more peaceful economic/scientific.

Keep in mind that we have three different eras. I could very well imagine that different eras have different civ attributes available.

Actually the Industrial Revolution was exactly this. Great Britain industrialised almost a century ahead of anywhere else in the world - it was actually really unique how it didn’t spread for so long. It was an extremely specific change that happened in the UK, and then a long time later spread. It’s the main reason the UK was so powerful during the time period, and was known as “the workshop of the world” etc.

That's just not true. I'm not terribly familiar with European history in general, but I do know that the Netherlands already started industrializing under King William I (not to be confused with William of Orange), who ruled 1815-1839. In other words, immediately after the French were gone, and well under half a century after James Watt's steam engine.

 

[Atlas627]

That's just not true. I'm not terribly familiar with European history in general, but I do know that the Netherlands already started industrializing under King William I (not to be confused with William of Orange), who ruled 1815-1839. In other words, immediately after the French were gone, and well under half a century after James Watt's steam engine.

It's pretty close to true. The First Industrial Revolution (1750) started about a century before the Second Industrial Revolution (1860), and the First was mostly Britain and New England (the Northeast of the United States), not spreading to continental Europe until the early 1800s (depending on the area, from 1800-1830). Everything took off in the Second Industrial Revolution.

Having a handful of engines is not the same as the heavy rail and factories of the UK. And 100 years is a big gap when we look at this period of history. Even the start of the spread wasn't for 50 years.

 

[dagriggstar]

From what I remember of playing previous games and the factions specifically mentioned (Greece, England, France, Germany)

Civ 3 - Germany and Greece are scientific. Greece, England and France were all commercial, which was probably the second ?best trait for raw science production (commerce itself didn’t do anything and was converted into science/gold/happiness based on your sliders).

Civ 4 - there is no explicit science trait, although Russia and Arabia were notable for their unique buildings.
Philosophical/Commercial were probably the two most science traits again (commerce working the same way as in 3, but now could be divided into science/gold/culture however you want with the sliders). Alexander, Frederick and Victoria possessed one of those traits. Elizabeth possessed both.

Civ 5 got rid of the old commerce system and it becomes more straightforward who the sciencey civs are. I think there’s enough discussion on 5/6 already though.

 

[Siptah]

This thread reminded me that, even after so many years, I‘m annoyed that the yield is called science and it is used to unlock techs, some of which are actually sciences while others are technologies. And some other sciences are meanwhile unlocked by culture instead. It portrays a view of world history in which science leads to new technology, which is only „true“ for relatively short parts of (Western) history, leaving out the rest of the time and places, in which technology was more or less completely independent from science. Or, as happened in the west for a long time, technology lead to science.