Why aren't the Jews a playable civilisation in Civ games?

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You said it! Where would the Bible be or would Islam (founder influenced by both Judaism and Christianity) exist or be the same?

And without Islam, the middle east would still be a great center for scientific thought. And without Christianity.. eh.. I guess most Americans and Europeans would be worshiping Mithra? Not much of a change there, really. Same holidays and everything. But the first bit would be -wow-.
 
The list of Civs would be a mile long if they were to add every civ that ever existed. If this were a game dominated by religion then the Jews would be at the top of the food chain.

BTW it is beyond belief some would use a topic like this to bash Israel. The Jewish people have been through alot thus far in history and are still being shelled on a daily basis. Yes innocent jews are being killed too. Leave the Islamic propaganda to Al-Jazeera please.
 
Yeah but like I said, Stalin did his atrocities in the past. Israel is doing bad things NOW. Actually now that I've thought about it a bit, just because a small number of Zionists running Israel at the moment are doing aweful things now doesn't mean 4000 years of history should be ignored.
They still should not be in the however, because I'd wager the greatness of King David and King Solomon were greatly, greatly exagerated when the bible was compiled.

Might make the game forbidden in Arabia just like Europe would have banned it if Hitler was in it.

America should be banned from the game because they're currently guilty of war crimes, unjust occupation of a foreign nation, and...well...economic crimes against the entire third world.
 
Indeed. And none of the following Civs, or their modern-day ethnic/cultural/religious descendants, did any such thing last year:

America
England
Russia
China
Arabia
Persia
Zululand
India
Korea
Ethiopia
Khmer

The fact you're equating the ancient Hebrew peoples with the political policies of Israel *last year* as some kind of justification to exclude a long-extinct culture from a video game betrays much about your mindset. I think "Palestinian sympathizer" is a charitable description. I'm a Palestinian sympathizer, too, to the extent that innocent people (both Israeli and Palestinian) are caught in a political, religious, and ethnic struggle beyond their control. Your statements suggest a deeper animus. I recommend dropping the shovel.

It's not that I think the Hebrews should be a Civ (I think there are good arguments for and against) only that your reasons for wanting to exclude them stink, and betray what I suspect is a deep reservoir of irrational animosity that goes beyond simple empathy for an unjust situation.

QFT. LOL. Right.

And as if the Palestinians aren't guilty of war crimes and terrorism? That Yasser Arafat was a real saint wasn't he? That's just war. How's the quote go? “The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility.”

War is a crime.
 
BTS should certainly have included Israel for the simple reason that EVERYONE knows who Israel is and was. Kind of obvious, isn't it?

As for the HRE, it was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire! You folks really MUST study a bit more history! Who was it that said that France, Spain and Germany came from the HRE? Dead wrong! Almost sad to read these ridiculously inaccurate statements.

Back to the inclusion of Israel and why--
1. They founded Judaism, which was NOT a missionary religion, but a distinct relationship between a God and his chosen people. It was not specifically restrictive, as any were open to know Jehovah, but it was not like the gospel-spreading of Christianity. But few religions are. Christianity, aside from Scientology, is pretty unique as far "spreading the word" goes.
2. They are the root, racially and spiritually, of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, three of the worlds most well-known religions, and building blocks of successive empires.
3. The unique traits of Hebrews, or Israelites, would have to be creativity and philosophy, no? Most of the Bible is poems and prophecy, right? And it was written entirely(oops, except may be for Job) by Israelites. This Hebrew book has 6,000,000,000 copies in print, three times as many as Mao's Little Red Book(which ranks 2nd).
4. The Hebrews occupied the area known as Palestine/Canaan from c. 1500 BC to about 100 AD, or roughly 1600 years, even though they were ransacked and displaced a few times. Yes, Persia and Babylon had their shots, but by the time of Christ there was still a Judea, and no longer either a Persian or Babylonian empire! No one complains about Mali being included or Tibet being excluded!(Can't believe nobody mentions Tibet!)
5. They are a distinct and globally recognized people whose history, however contraversial, spans as broad a swath of world history as China, Japan, Egypt, India, and Persia.

For leaders, Joshua, David, and/or Moses(even though he already appears as a prophet). Joshua was less aggressive than David, remember. David was the conquerer. Moses was more philosophical and organized.

UU--Mighty Men, replaces Warrior, 3 str, 2 mv; similar to guerillas, these were Davids warriors who waged a campaign against the Philistines on and off. Inspired the Maccabean revolts of 168 bc and likely inspired the staunch resistance to Rome circa 70 AD.

UB--Stone Altar, similar to Monument, as it was traditional to erect such literal markers for the Israelites special occassions--such as crossing the Jordan.

Should start with Mysticism and Agriculture.


Btw, the whole Polynesian thing sounds kind of silly. Unless we want to politely include Enuit, Aboriginal, and Quenchuan civs as well.

Well stated.
 
Why is Germany in the game and not Poland? Or Russia and not Poland? :confused:Heck, Germany didn't become a country until 1860, right? And Poland has had a far richer and, <ahem> independant culture than Germany.
And thank you for not putting Cananda up there--they're not even a real country!:lol:

I'm a little confused. Isn't Canada a province of the USA?
 
Well then I demand the Christians and Muslims as playable civilizations as well.

They are. Arabs and Spain.

Hell. I'd like to play as the Amish: a religious separatist group that colonized the new world.
 
Like Mali? Or the Holy Roman Non-Empire?
Holy crap, the Byzantines are in there!

The Byzantines are deserving. They existed for another 900 years after the fall of Western Rome. Too bad the Christians conquered them. ;)
 
There's a function called multi-quote, on the bottom right of each post. That way you don't have to make a new post for every quote.

Also what the hell is an economic crime?
The only way America could be guilty of an economic crime against the third world is if we were robbing them. Last I checked they don't really have anything -to- rob. In fact, we -give- their governments money.
 
What u talking about?

We were at one point the most powerful empire in Europe! Grouping us with Canada or Australia is offensive. Pleas read our history before commenting.

Yes, but when has your soccer team been any good? :lol:
 
Yes, but when has your soccer team been any good? :lol:

When has -soccer- been good?
Used to be a hockey man myself, until they stopped filling the team with convicts. It's a low scoring sport so without all of the violence it might as well be curling.
Though honestly I think watching sports in general is kind of silly, better to actually participate in them.
 
If that is what he meant, then he should say what he means.
There is a wide difference between "semitic culture" and Middle East.

Though Egypt is [at least in my experience] considered part of the Middle East as well as Africa presently.

Perhaps we should differentiate Mediterranean civs from Europe and Africa.

Besides, I think Israel's designation belongs in Europe, doesn't it? I mean, that's where they play soccer.
 
Fully independant from Britain, and technically sovereign otherwise, yes.

Again, all of this Canada talk is confusing me. Of course all of the alleged ties to Britian are ceremonial, since Canada is the 51st state (in incognito) of America? Technically independent of England, but independent of America?

(just teasing)
 
There's a function called multi-quote, on the bottom right of each post. That way you don't have to make a new post for every quote.

Also what the hell is an economic crime?
The only way America could be guilty of an economic crime against the third world is if we were robbing them. Last I checked they don't really have anything -to- rob. In fact, we -give- their governments money.

To utilize the multi-quote function would require a high degree of organization, which is not one of my two allotted personal traits. Besides, I'm just reading through the thread and posting as the muse strikes me.

Economic crimes would be the "banana republic" attititude America regards the third world. It would be utilizing American companies (as opposed to Iraqi companies) to build an oil pipeline (a device which enriches corporate investors--also the real reason for the invasion--and this instead of actually assisting or permitting Iraq to rebuild it's shattered infrastructure) from Iraq to Afghanistan.

America is a parasite.

"We" give money not to nations, but indeed to governments controlled by individuals who will use that money to increase the productive output of the surfs living inside that banana republic.

It's actually a beautiful mechanic of the game that we can utilize our colonies as banana (or gems, gold, silver, deer, clam, crab, oil, etc..) republics.
 
I'm not talking about the vikings.
I'm talking about Ragnar. I'm not even going to claim the vikings aren't deserving, hell they deserve a 2nd leader more than Germany does.

Yeah, ok, I would've gone with Canute or something too ... but civs aren't included on the basis of leaders. Even if they were, David and Solomon would be way down the list. They had a little kingdom and built one temple ... which, if it ever existed (archaeology seems to indicate otherwise), was a replica of one in Tyre and built by Tyrian craftsmen ...

They'll have to compete with all the Alarics etc who aren't in the game, they're still a long ways down the list.

Besides, we're going more by the impact they had on the world, now how great they were at the time. The world would be a -much- different place had it not been for the Hebrew people.

Only because of the religion, which is already represented.
 
Again, all of this Canada talk is confusing me. Of course all of the alleged ties to Britian are ceremonial, since Canada is the 51st state (in incognito) of America? Technically independent of England, but independent of America?

(just teasing)

That's pretty much the case. Just not formally. Between NORAD, NAFTA, and SPPNA, Canada is not de facto sovereign, either economically, militarily, or legislatively.
 
BTW it is beyond belief some would use a topic like this to bash Israel. The Jewish people have been through alot thus far in history and are still being shelled on a daily basis. Yes innocent jews are being killed too. Leave the Islamic propaganda to Al-Jazeera please.

I was fully expecting Israel-bashing when I posted this. What is a little surprising is that the post was hijacked first by debate about Polish greatness and then Canadian sovereignty...:D
 
Yeah, they probably aren't adding them because they want to avoid the topic of their controversial history with the Germans and other countries. Think about it- Stalin killed about as much people as Hitler. But they haven't added Hitler due to the controversy.
 
If I am correct Sid is Jewish/of Hebrew descent. If he felt that the jews/Hebrews should be in the game, i am quite sure he has enough influence to get them included. He designed a game that I have gotten more enjoyable play time from than any other game I have ever had. HOMM2 being the #2 by a looooong margin. In order to continue providing me with new versions and the occasional bug-filled patch, he/firaxis needs to make a profit. So they do their marketing studies. Usually instead of play testing. And they find what demographics are most likely to BUY the game. This has a larger impact on choosing civs than anything else. Obviously, everyone can not be included, but Sid did give us the option of MODS. Check the Mods page here for one for Poland. It has just under 900 downloads. There are several canadian Mods with have over 1000 downloads each. As vocal as the pro-Poland supporters may be, they just aren't enough of them to warrant a Polish Civ.
 
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