Why aren't the Jews a playable civilisation in Civ games?

[CheScott]

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but we are talking about a game where SLAVERY is a legitimate option?

As I recall from early Civ games, each population point represents 10,000 people does it not? And we can kill a bunch of those people to complete some building we're working on.

Isn't there a Tech for Fascism which yeilds the ability to institute a Police State and a Great General if you're the first one there? (Something I always chuckled about, given what a crappy General the guy was.)

For Pete's sake! WE CAN NUKE PEOPLE AND POISON THEIR WATER! Clearly 'atrocity' is PART of the game and intended to be so.

The Jews don't warrant a Civilization because they barely had one and are still teetering at the edge of holding the one they were GIVEN togeather. Not because of atrocities, which they have and probably will continue to commit.

I think there's a lot of extreme opinions floating around here flying in the face of logic, and you all need to come back down to Earth before I have the lot of you Nerve Stapled.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Saladin = No idea what "The Almighty dF" is on about, but there again neither does he/she, so I wouldn't worry about it.

If you read back through this thread the guy/girl keeps making one unfounded claim after another. First he demonstrates an appalling lack of knowledge about the early history of the people he is championing, then he ignores all arguments for their inclusion based upon the known historical facts, then he/she goes on to say that the vikings and sumerians were not civs. I mean FFS the sumerians invented civilization. Now he's having a go at Saladin, and is clearly someone with more opinions than education.

For those of you who are not familiar with the history of this period, Saladin was one of the good guys, and in fact many Muslim leaders were far more educated, enlightened, cultured and humanitarian than their Christean contemporaries of this period and indeed later. That doesn't mean that all Muslim leaders were good guys, and there were some really bad ones, just as there were some really bad Christan leaders. If anyone wants a balanced view of how Christian / Islamic leaders acted in different ways in similar circumstances, then go read "The Cross and the Crescent" by Richard Fletcher. it's a small but highly readable book that deals with the relationship of Islam and Christianity from the time of Mohamed to the Reformation.

Regards - Mr P

And this person is a troll. Ignore what it says and eventually it'll go back to rickrolling people or whatever.
I didn't say the vikings weren't a civ, I even said they deserved more leaders than Germany did. What I said was that Ragnar was a silly choice of leader.
I also think Gilgamesh was an -extremely- silly choice for a leader.
Sumeria -does- deserve to be a civ, though.

And calling Saladin one of the good guys is just laughable. I'm not going to call Lionheart a good guy either, I mean he too was a massmurdering nutcase. I'm just saying that Lionheart was motivated more by political means whereas Saladin was motivated more by religious means. Doesn't make either of them right, but it doesn't take away their mass-murdering status.

Go back to *****.

 

[TheLastOne36]

And calling Saladin one of the good guys is just laughable. I'm not going to call Lionheart a good guy either, I mean he too was a massmurdering nutcase. I'm just saying that Lionheart was motivated more by political means whereas Saladin was motivated more by religious means. Doesn't make either of them right, but it doesn't take away their mass-murdering status.

Go back to *****.

Saladin was pretty peaceful compared to other leaders. IIRC when he captured christian villages/towns, he gave the villagers an option to be sent back to Italy. And yes he was well educated, like most muslim leaders at that time.

Why do you think in the game he was giving Spiritual/Protective instead of Aggressive?

 

[Inspector Javert]

First things first

Besides, imagine having some Moses of Israel vs. Ramesses II of Egypt action? I'm neither Christian nor Jewish, but I would have a blast. Crank up Metallica's "Creeping Death", prepare my best Charlton Heston impression, and just have a good old time. ...But that's just me. >.> <.<

I just have to say ROCK ON MAN!!!!! (Plays opening cords of creeping death on air guitar)

Now onto the main discussion

Some of the main arguments against the Israelites' inclusion are

1. They had no real influence

You would do well to read The Gifts of the Jews Judaism was the root of many of our modern economic and domestic policies, it also gave rise to Christianity which, it can be argued, was the start of the "equality for all movement" (There is no man nor women, gentile nor Jew etc...)

Israel today is also vastly influential in that it has stood up to attacks from all sides and prevailed, it's mere existence is going to have a major effect on foreign everywhere policy for years to come due to the fact that every two bit dictator in the Middle-East can't wait to attack it.

And their influence could be even greater if only Moses had taken a left turn off the mountain...

2. They're a religion not a people
Many civilizations have strong ties to religion thats no excuse to disqualify them.

3. They commit war crimes
Point 1
What Israel does isn't war crimes, not by a long shot. They are defending themselves from people who strap bombs to their children and run into pizza parlors, against people who use civilians as cover any innocent blood spilled is on the hands of the terrorists not on Israeli hands.

Point 2
Mao killed about 60,000,000 people

Stalin killed millions more

Qin ruled over massive persecution of the Confucian religion

The Aztecs cut out peoples hearts and ate human flesh in ritual sacrifices

Peter the Great killed his own son by literally whipping him to death

Arabia is largely ruled under the barbaric misogynistic Sharia Law

All civilizations have black marks on them, you can't claim that they're unworthy of inclusion based on that fact alone.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Saladin was pretty peaceful compared to other leaders. IIRC when he captured christian villages/towns, he gave the villagers an option to be sent back to Italy. And yes he was well educated, like most muslim leaders at that time.

Why do you think in the game he was giving Spiritual/Protective instead of Aggressive?

Because his archers were notoriously well trained.

I'm not going to say he wasn't well educated, I just don't think someone who killed based on faith and faith alone (Saladin generally only left heretics alive as part of deals, just as he only let heretics stay within his cities as part of deals.
But since when does being well educated keep one from being a religious extremist? Last I checked, even Osama bin Laden went to college.
...Or maybe we have different definitions over what makes one a religious extremist or a mass murderer, since my definition itself has changed to be able to include people like Osama and Charles Manson, people who organize the murders of others but do not actually take part in the killing themselves.
I'd include Richard the First in that as well but... it's hard to tell whether his motives were truly religious or not.

 

[Gudinsdiv]

And this person is a troll. Ignore what it says and eventually it'll go back to rickrolling people or whatever.
I didn't say the vikings weren't a civ, I even said they deserved more leaders than Germany did. What I said was that Ragnar was a silly choice of leader.
I also think Gilgamesh was an -extremely- silly choice for a leader.
Sumeria -does- deserve to be a civ, though.

And calling Saladin one of the good guys is just laughable. I'm not going to call Lionheart a good guy either, I mean he too was a massmurdering nutcase. I'm just saying that Lionheart was motivated more by political means whereas Saladin was motivated more by religious means. Doesn't make either of them right, but it doesn't take away their mass-murdering status.

Go back to *****.

"Almighty" df:
You have nerve calling anyone a troll. In posts sent my way you throw around "******" and "douchbag".
In my original comment, I responded to a foreigners criticism of my nations political system--and you were in no way implicated or involved. Then you go on and call me douchbag for backing up an argument that you felt justified in assaulting in the first place, doing so after making comments about an internationally recognized intellectual who is honored and respected the world over that were so absurd one can only assume you have the briefest passing knowledge of who the man is or what his credentials are.
I don't know what elementary school you go to, but the principal there must call your mommy and daddy an awful lot if this is how you behave.

Kindly try to remain "civilized" and not toss crude names at people just because they have a different opinion--something the rest of us adults learned back when we were in your grade.

 

[The Almighty dF]

"Almighty" df:
You have nerve calling anyone a troll. In posts sent my way you throw around "******" and "douchbag".
In my original comment, I responded to a foreigners criticism of my nations political system--and you were in no way implicated or involved. Then you go on and call me douchbag for backing up an argument that you felt justified in assaulting in the first place, doing so after making comments about an internationally recognized intellectual who is honored and respected the world over that were so absurd one can only assume you have the briefest passing knowledge of who the man is or what his credentials are.
I don't know what elementary school you go to, but the principal there must call your mommy and daddy an awful lot if this is how you behave.

Kindly try to remain "civilized" and not toss crude names at people just because they have a different opinion--something the rest of us adults learned back when we were in your grade.

"Don't toss around insults, you little whiny elementary schooler."

Suck it up.
You tried to further derail a thread with political . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . that has nothing to even do with what the subject is. Quit crying over it and either speak on subject or shut up.

 

[Gudinsdiv]

Derail?
Are you mad?
This thread is TWELVE PAGES LONG! Having read most of it, the topic has been kicked bacxk and forth for some time, as well as having diverged here and there concerning one thing or another.

Sure, I'll "suck it up", just show me your badge first.

BTW, isn't it derailing the topic when you post back to me about a comment that is derailing the topic? Is this making sense?
As for "derailment", your comments on Saladin created their own diversion. Even if I disagreed with Rvil Plum, I didn't see the comments as "trolling", just lack of information.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Derail?
Are you mad?
This thread is TWELVE PAGES LONG! Having read most of it, the topic has been kicked bacxk and forth for some time, as well as having diverged here and there concerning one thing or another.

Sure, I'll "suck it up", just show me your badge first.

So it's okay to derail a thread that's been derailed before and has just now gotten back on topic.
I like your logic.
Let's go flood New Orleans.

Shut up and let the thread get back on topic or let the thread die. I'm not going to reply to any more of your idiotic off-topic posts.

 

[CheScott]

1. They had no real influence

You would do well to read The Gifts of the Jews Judaism was the root of many of our modern economic and domestic policies, it also gave rise to Christianity which, it can be argued, was the start of the "equality for all movement" (There is no man nor women, gentile nor Jew etc...)

Israel today is also vastly influential in that it has stood up to attacks from all sides and prevailed, it's mere existence is going to have a major effect on foreign everywhere policy for years to come due to the fact that every two bit dictator in the Middle-East can't wait to attack it.

And their influence could be even greater if only Moses had taken a left turn off the mountain...

Sorry, I really just can't buy that. I mean, that's all great and up to extreme levels of debate that I'm just not willing to get into and all but... I just have a really hard time believing that there would be a 12 page debate going on about this is Jesus didn't happen to be a Jew.

Now, that's not to say Judaism isn't important, but until WWII it was just a bunch of people scattered across the globe and it's global relevance since then is almost wholly dependent on Christianity and if it wasn't for Chrstianity I don't think we'd give it even as much regard as we give Buddhism (our indifference towards Tibet is fairly indicative of where we stand on that, as a society.)

Fended off attacks? With the money and guns we gave them.

Also, just to bring you into the 21st century on this, most of the real dictators in the Middle East steer clear of Israel. They've come to terms with the fact that it's just plain going to be there, those that claim otherwise are those who seek power, not those who have it.

Amidinajad is a great example of this. He's the first person everyone points to when they want to talk about those evil muslims who are trying to destroy Israel. But he ran for his office on an economic ticket and when he failed to deliver, he started making a lot of noise about Israel, which is always really popular for a while. But the people in Iran have gotten wise to him and, at this point, we are paying more attention to his anti-Israeli rhetoric than most of them are. There's no way he's going to get re-elected because everyone who lives in the country knows something that most all of our elected officials are equally aware of. He's never going to actually do anything about it.

Now, all we have to do is realize that our leaders are duping us to get us to support them, in a very similar way to the way Amidinajad is trying to dupe his people. It's all fear mongering and total bulls***.

Iran isn't going to nuke Israel because their leaders know that if they did, they're all dead. They want to retain power, not die senselessly.

Israel is going to have a major impact on foreign policy mostly because of what a total pain in the ass it is.

The Pro-Israel lobby is the third largest lobby group in America, behind Insurance and Pharmaceuticals. I don't think many people will argue that we haven't been sold more than one pile of s*** on behalf of the top two, because of their lobbying efforts and I don't think people would be putting that much money into Pro-Israeli lobbying because it was totally ineffective.

As for your severely uninformed notion of Israel's War Crimes, the UN has passes more than a dozen resolutions condemning their actions. We invaded Iraq because we thought they were in violation of one.

Wake up and turn off the TV, or something.

EDIT: And, just a little correction. I think you might have misplaced a decimal somewhere in there. Stalin killed about 10,000,000, which is not millions more than 60,000,000. And I think 60,000,000 sounds like a crazily unrealistic number. Are you sure that isn't 6 Million?

I'm not going to argue they shouldn't be included because of atrocities. I'm not even going to argue that they shouldn't be included. But I certianlly do not find their particular Civilization to be exceptional in any way more than a vast number of others.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Sorry, I really just can't buy that. I mean, that's all great and up to extreme levels of debate that I'm just not willing to get into and all but... I just have a really hard time believing that there would be a 12 page debate going on about this is Jesus didn't happen to be a Jew.

Now, that's not to say Judaism isn't important, but until WWII it was just a bunch of people scattered across the globe and it's global relevance since then is almost wholly dependent on Christianity and if it wasn't for Chrstianity I don't think we'd give it even as much regard as we give Buddhism (our indifference towards Tibet is fairly indicative of where we stand on that, as a society.)

Fended off attacks? With the money and guns we gave them.

Also, just to bring you into the 21st century on this, most of the real dictators in the Middle East steer clear of Israel. They've come to terms with the fact that it's just plain going to be there, those that claim otherwise are those who seek power, not those who have it.

Amidinajad is a great example of this. He's the first person everyone points to when they want to talk about those evil muslims who are trying to destroy Israel. But he ran for his office on an economic ticket and when he failed to deliver, he started making a lot of noise about Israel, which is always really popular for a while. But the people in Iran have gotten wise to him and, at this point, we are paying more attention to his anti-Israeli rhetoric than most of them are. There's no way he's going to get re-elected because everyone who lives in the country knows something that most all of our elected officials are equally aware of. He's never going to actually do anything about it.

Now, all we have to do is realize that our leaders are duping us to get us to support them, in a very similar way to the way Amidinajad is trying to dupe his people. It's all fear mongering and total bulls***.

Iran isn't going to nuke Israel because their leaders know that if they did, they're all dead. They want to retain power, not die senselessly.

Israel is going to have a major impact on foreign policy mostly because of what a total pain in the ass it is.

The Pro-Israel lobby is the third largest lobby group in America, behind Insurance and Pharmaceuticals. I don't think many people will argue that we haven't been sold more than one pile of s*** on behalf of the top two, because of their lobbying efforts and I don't think people would be putting that much money into Pro-Israeli lobbying because it was totally ineffective.

As for your severely uninformed notion of Israel's War Crimes, the UN has passes more than a dozen resolutions condemning their actions. We invaded Iraq because we thought they were in violation of one.

Wake up and turn off the TV, or something.

1. I'll admit yeah, their influence is pretty much entirely religious.

2. Yeah, America does fund Israel and yes they do kill off Muslims... but I'm not just about to label one side as evil and one side as good. The palestinians are almost inhumanly evil. I'm sorry but you can't strap bombs onto women, children, and the mentally challenged and go "Oh well we are fighting evil!"
This is less Nazis vs Innocents and more organized Nazi vs unorganized Nazi, not literally of course but I mean Nazi as in what most people think of when they think Nazi. ...That probably doesn't make much sense. If it doesn't, please say so and I'll drum up a better analogy.
But again, even if you think Israel is some evil nation, are you going to say they're worse than Mao or Stalin?
If they aren't, then why should evil deeds keep them from being in Civ alongside both of those leaders?

 

[Gudinsdiv]

TheLastOne: And again, this leads us to a laymans list of Poland's major historical impact:
Holding back the Ottomans, helping the USSR become a pseudo-power, and being taken over by Nazi Germany. The former is pretty big, yes. Is it big enough to make out like they're the most important European nation? Not at all.
And if you don't think the world would be any different if Ireland was still part of the UK, you know nothing about either.
...Though I'll agree that maybe there wouldn't be much of a difference if Australia was still owned by the UK.
Also the world would be quite different if Canada was part of America, especially depending on when the two joined. If we're talking during the birth of America, then for one native americans would be nothing more than a memory.

nothing off topic about that...

 

[Gudinsdiv]

And you don't think a more powerful America would change things?

This is why I still say Poland is in the same group as at least Canada and Ireland. I guess Australia less so, depending on how important unique culture is. Just because a place seems small and calm today doesn't mean it hasn't had its accomplishments.
...Then again, Ireland may start to become a big deal again what with their EU problems.

continuing an argument that is increasingly off-topic here....

 

[Gudinsdiv]

The best way to put it is that Canada is as independent as Australia.
Still Commonwealth, but still mostly independent.

The level of freedom from the crown goes:

India and Ireland > Australia/Canada > North Ireland, Wales, Scotland.

Still off topic, though.

my thoughts exactly....

 

[Gudinsdiv]

Or if you're too cheap to read Noam Chomsky, just find a pothead and ask him about how the "corporations are raping the world and bringing about wage slavery."

Noam Chomsky is a deranged socialist weasel and his fanbase is made almost entirely of people who want to be rebellious. It's the same drunk young-at-mind "rebels" that join PETA and talk about how KFC is killing chickens, but really they're just repeating protest signs and streaking. I mean if you want to get high and streak, feel free. Just don't make out like you're doing it for the good of a cause.

Now can we put aside retards trying to understand politics and focus on what the actual topic is? That is Israel, either modern day or the popular image of what they may have been years ago (Yeah it's possible they weren't really much of an empire even then, but come on. Civ4 has Ragnar. -Ragnar-. And Gilgamesh. King David suddenly doesn't sound silly.)

and of course the comment that started it all, completely off topic and then charging the individual they are instigating with being off-topic.

I rest my case.

 

[_random_]

Regarding the "Israel commits war crimes" argument, if they included it in the game, it would most likely be based off of ancient Israel, who generally steered clear of the whole war crimes scene. Actually, Mosaic law states that whenever they invade a town, they are to offer a peace treaty before killing anyone. And it should definitely be included in the game. Read the book of Judges, they had plenty of time as a totally sovereign state back then.

 

[The Almighty dF]

If by case you mean off-topic spam, thank you for finally giving it a rest.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Regarding the "Israel commits war crimes" argument, if they included it in the game, it would most likely be based off of ancient Israel, who generally steered clear of the whole war crimes scene. Actually, Mosaic law states that whenever they invade a town, they are to offer a peace treaty before killing anyone. And it should definitely be included in the game. Read the book of Judges, they had plenty of time as a totally sovereign state back then.

That's not exactly a decent source, though.
The sad truth is, ancient Israel is largely unknown due to a lack of reliable evidence.

That's why the only reason why I think it should be included is because of cultural and religious importance, not because of their questionable empire.

 

[Rvil Plum]

You are entitled to display your ignorance about ancient and modern world history in this forum, but you are not entitled to use this forum to propagate you sick bigotry and overt racism as displayed by your comment , "The Palestinians are almost inhumanly evil".

You have been a remarkable champion for your cause, and I shudder to think what version of history you were taught at school, and I shudder even more at the hidden agenda behind the teaching curriculum. The Nazis and Communists rewrote history and indoctrinated an entire generation to keep them feeble minded and isolated from the truth. At least you have access to the Internet. Use it to find out what the truth actually is, because as of right now, you are so blinded by hatred, you would not know the truth if fell from the sky and landed on your head.

 

[The Almighty dF]

You are entitled to display your ignorance about ancient and modern world history in this forum, but you are not entitled to use this forum to propagate you sick bigotry and overt racism as displayed by your comment , "The Palestinians are almost inhumanly evil".

You have been a remarkable champion for your cause, and I shudder to think what version of history you were taught at school, and I shudder even more at the hidden agenda behind the teaching curriculum. The Nazis and Communists rewrote history and indoctrinated an entire generation to keep them feeble minded and isolated from the truth. At least you have access to the Internet. Use it to find out what the truth actually is, because as of right now, you are so blinded by hatred, you would not know the truth if fell from the sky and landed on your head.

By Palestinians I meant the "semi-country", not a race of arabs. I'm not a racist.

You're just some douchebag trying to turn this thread into a flamewar, which I'll admit you've been somewhat successful, it was obvious when you came in this thread starting off with how having a -monarch- is better than having a supreme court.
Shut up, go back to protesting the CoS or whatever you do in your free time. The thread was just now getting back on subject.

Again, that subject, since you're obviously -blind-.
ISRAEL
IN
CIVILIZATION 4.
It's a PC game series, it's called Civilization. We're discussing if Israel, in any incarnation, deserves to be among the ranks of the other civilizations added to the game series.
What was that series called again?
Civilization
What was that country called?
Israel

Now. Let's discuss that topic, shall we?