Why aren't the Jews a playable civilisation in Civ games?

[Crowqueen]

You left the part out where Ariel Sharon rode in on a white horse and engaged in valiant combat with both Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein on the Death Star.

Ariel Sharon notwithstanding (who is an obnoxious tyrant), he has a point about the long-term situation. If the Soviet Union under Stalin had backed Israel regardless of them not adopting full communism, the left (who seem to form world opinion regarding conflicts like the Middle East, regardless of the actual situation on the ground or the delicate balances which hawks like Sharon or Arafat did so much to upset) would be pro- rather than anti-Israeli. From all accounts, young Jews and Arabs are creating a civil society which, although yet to mature into a political society and elect leaders which have grown up in it, is genuinely pluralistic and genuinely committed to trying to build bridges. It's not easy but as someone who has a Jewish boyfriend I understand the situation more clearly now than I did a while ago and although he owes more allegiance to Russia and Britain (his mother was Russian and brought him up bilingual in Russian) than to Israel isn't wholly against it, just believes that Sharon has caused more trouble than he is worth and should be replaced forthwith - however he is democratically elected by the majority of Israelis who obviously feel under siege enough to want a hawk rather than a dove as leader. I didn't vote for Tony Blair at the last election but I accepted his election as democratic (although at the same time I know there is fraud going on, I believe that Israeli elections are free and fair to the extent that all democracies are). We need another Rabin to really get things sorted out but probably won't get one until this more integrated and less Europeanised younger generation grows up. In the mean time the Palestinians already have a state - Jordan - plus I agree that they should be able to live in current Israeli territory as free and equal to Jewish settlers, which is something that the hardliners should be made to accept (though possibly are accepting more and more as younger people grow up together in Israel rather than having roots in Europe). But Israel is actually one of the only democracies in that part of the world, and it is or has been a culture of as much antiquity as Sumer or Babylon, so I think it should be included, though with the emphasis on the "Hebrews" and Solomon/David rather than modern leaders for obvious reasons.

Civs should be chosen on the basis of being moderate powers/countries/empires in their own right and not just because they were either angels or demons, or something in between (because "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" in this case). I do think there is a case for an Israeli/Hebrew civ if there is a case for a Sumerian or Babylonian civ. But plenty of people have modded it in enough to say that if you want to play it then download a mod for it and stop bleating about why it isn't included in the main game. I think it is controversial enough to be an opportunity to modders rather than, like the Koreans, small and debatably insignificant but mostly harmless (it's not as if you can play as Kim Il-Sung or Kim Jong-Il unless you mod them in).

 

[Rumata]

Nice idea. But Hebrews must have 'special' things :
1) IF jews got wardecced by someone but pwned agressor they must give back conquered land
2) if while defending their unit killed enemy this must be considered as crime and add -1 with all civs who knows mass media
3)if there Arabs in game, Jews must give up, by default-)

 

[The Fishman]

Nice idea. But Hebrews must have 'special' things :
1) IF jews got wardecced by someone but pwned agressor they must give back conquered land
2) if while defending their unit killed enemy this must be considered as crime and add -1 with all civs who knows mass media
3)if there Arabs in game, Jews must give up, by default-)

And their UU could be an Israeli settler which can settle inside foreign borders whilst forcing out all opposing culture!

Sorry mate, two can play at politicising an innocent video game...

 

[TheLastOne36]

I think the Hebrews are Jews in the same way that the Chinese under Qin Shi Huang are Chinese. The Hebrews may have been a minor civilisation, and their nation destroyed, but their culture persisted and the Jews are distinct. If something as brief as the Holy Roman Empire can hold a place, I see no reason why the Jews/Hebrews can't.

Don't you dare mention them!!!!

They took Poland's spot in BtS...

Besides the HRE lasted for centuries. The Caniite kingdom lasted for what? 50 years? maybe 100?

Anyway this is the order of civs that need to be added in the game:

1. Poland/Austria
2. Austria/Poland
3. Polynesia
4. Venezuela/Gran Colombia (just because we need another SA civ)
5. An African civ. I think the Swahili should be in.
6. Asian civ, in particular a SE civ.
7. Israel/Hebrews/Jews/Judaism/whatever you want to call it.
8. Everything Else.

 

[Rvil Plum]

First knee jerk reaction was = Polynesia? Someone has been taking to many happy pills again.

Second more thoughtful reaction = well errr gosh, and I suppose yes. Not in the top 3 of possible additions, but yes it's a definitely a worthy civ for inclusion.

They would look out of place and a bit silly in a standard continents type map, but if Civ 5 is flexible enough, then perhaps they could only be played on an archaepelago type map.

Wonder what their UU and UB should be?

Regards - Mr P

 

[say1988]

ON TOPIC:
The Jewish people have had a large impact on history, but very little of it was as their own civilization. The Kingdom of Judah wasn't really a major power (compared to Assyrians, Babylon etc..), though this is what has claim to a spot in Civ. But I wouldn't put them near the top of the list.
Then they has a short period of ~100 years between Hellenic and Roman Rule.
And were not independant again until 1948. Though they have had a significant role, and remarkably won wars, they are but a bit player they are not nearly a significant power.
Many of the greatest achievements occurred outside these times, i.e. The time of Jesus and the rise of Christianity were under Roman control.

OFF TOPIC:
For those who commented on HRE:
It shouldn't be in. It was a German Empire (yes it origins were in France, but the Franks were a German tribe and it was German for the vast majority of its history), and should be included under the Germans.
Native Americans deserve to be in the game, but the current ones should just be Sioux (the Greeks at least had a common culture). The Celts fall into this category as well. Not a great power, but they fill more of a role.
They other civ I question the presence of, Zulu, have a role as a Sub-saharan civ (as compared to the holy land which was a key part of other included civs).

Thelastone, a few problems with your list:
You lack very important ancient/classical civs, that are overshadowed by the big 2 (Greece and Rome), such as Scythia or Early civs like the Hitites (though I know little about the period, so I couldn't pick one).
Polynesia should be a specific group.
I would also consider Iroquois/Cherokee as well (with renamed Natives).

 

[frekk]

The Polynesians DO make sense. They colonized half a hemisphere, and if you add up the land mass, it's quite alot. More than many of the civs in the game. They spread out from New Guinea and colonized some fairly large bits of land, like New Zealand, plus all those islands add up. In total, Oceania - minus Australia - is about 500 000 square miles, which is as much as Great Britain, Germany, Japan, and France combined (the population was never much, but as good as Portugal or the Netherlands). And they are a very unique culture, one of only four areas where agriculture and plant cultivation was developed independantly, being agrarian by about 7000 BC ...

But yeah, they look weird on a land map. But I think they are a good pick as an ancient civ, if only for the agricultural and expansionist achievements.

 

[TheLastOne36]

First knee jerk reaction was = Polynesia? Someone has been taking to many happy pills again.

Second more thoughtful reaction = well errr gosh, and I suppose yes. Not in the top 3 of possible additions, but yes it's a definitely a worthy civ for inclusion.

They would look out of place and a bit silly in a standard continents type map, but if Civ 5 is flexible enough, then perhaps they could only be played on an archaepelago type map.

Wonder what their UU and UB should be?

Regards - Mr P

UU would be something that has to do with a galley. There UB would be something.(not actually sure, but fireaxis always come up with something)

The Polynesians were the first Eurasian people (excluding the original amerindians and possibly the vikings(not sure if they got to there before or after) to get to the Americas. And the amazing thing is, that they did it on Canoe! That there is already a good enough reason to be included.

They were really advanced to have figured out tidal patterns and currents of the oceans, and were just starting to make mini island empires when the europeans came. I disagree with your statement of only playable during archipelago maps because for one, they did settle inland (for example, new zealand) and two, every civ was made playable in any terrein in civ 4. For example, you could have the Zulu empire in the tundra or the Khmer empire in the desert. Why should the Polynesians be any different. They were also extremely well organized, and made island "utopias".

 

[Gudinsdiv]

BTS should certainly have included Israel for the simple reason that EVERYONE knows who Israel is and was. Kind of obvious, isn't it?

As for the HRE, it was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire! You folks really MUST study a bit more history! Who was it that said that France, Spain and Germany came from the HRE? Dead wrong! Almost sad to read these ridiculously inaccurate statements.

Back to the inclusion of Israel and why--
1. They founded Judaism, which was NOT a missionary religion, but a distinct relationship between a God and his chosen people. It was not specifically restrictive, as any were open to know Jehovah, but it was not like the gospel-spreading of Christianity. But few religions are. Christianity, aside from Scientology, is pretty unique as far "spreading the word" goes.
2. They are the root, racially and spiritually, of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, three of the worlds most well-known religions, and building blocks of successive empires.
3. The unique traits of Hebrews, or Israelites, would have to be creativity and philosophy, no? Most of the Bible is poems and prophecy, right? And it was written entirely(oops, except may be for Job) by Israelites. This Hebrew book has 6,000,000,000 copies in print, three times as many as Mao's Little Red Book(which ranks 2nd).
4. The Hebrews occupied the area known as Palestine/Canaan from c. 1500 BC to about 100 AD, or roughly 1600 years, even though they were ransacked and displaced a few times. Yes, Persia and Babylon had their shots, but by the time of Christ there was still a Judea, and no longer either a Persian or Babylonian empire! No one complains about Mali being included or Tibet being excluded!(Can't believe nobody mentions Tibet!)
5. They are a distinct and globally recognized people whose history, however contraversial, spans as broad a swath of world history as China, Japan, Egypt, India, and Persia.

For leaders, Joshua, David, and/or Moses(even though he already appears as a prophet). Joshua was less aggressive than David, remember. David was the conquerer. Moses was more philosophical and organized.

UU--Mighty Men, replaces Warrior, 3 str, 2 mv; similar to guerillas, these were Davids warriors who waged a campaign against the Philistines on and off. Inspired the Maccabean revolts of 168 bc and likely inspired the staunch resistance to Rome circa 70 AD.

UB--Stone Altar, similar to Monument, as it was traditional to erect such literal markers for the Israelites special occassions--such as crossing the Jordan.

Should start with Mysticism and Agriculture.


Btw, the whole Polynesian thing sounds kind of silly. Unless we want to politely include Enuit, Aboriginal, and Quenchuan civs as well.

 

[Gudinsdiv]

Don't you dare mention them!!!!

They took Poland's spot in BtS...

Besides the HRE lasted for centuries. The Caniite kingdom lasted for what? 50 years? maybe 100?

Anyway this is the order of civs that need to be added in the game:

1. Poland/Austria
2. Austria/Poland
3. Polynesia
4. Venezuela/Gran Colombia (just because we need another SA civ)
5. An African civ. I think the Swahili should be in.
6. Asian civ, in particular a SE civ.
7. Israel/Hebrews/Jews/Judaism/whatever you want to call it.
8. Everything Else.

Why is Germany in the game and not Poland? Or Russia and not Poland? Heck, Germany didn't become a country until 1860, right? And Poland has had a far richer and, <ahem> independant culture than Germany.
And thank you for not putting Cananda up there--they're not even a real country!

 

[TheLastOne36]

Why is Germany in the game and not Poland? Or Russia and not Poland? Heck, Germany didn't become a country until 1860, right? And Poland has had a far richer and, <ahem> independant culture than Germany.
And thank you for not putting Cananda up there--they're not even a real country!

I'm guessing this is just an ignorant rant? because i have, can, and will take this thread to a 30 page offtopic rant on why Poland should be in the game. (any member here last summer will know my wrath )

btw, i think in civ V the colonization system should be improved to actually use real names of civs colonies, so england will spawn canada instead of some random civ. (But Canada won't be a playable civ, they could have a seperate leader, but there uu and ub would be british etc.)

 

[NYHunter]

Well then I demand the Christians and Muslims as playable civilizations as well.

 

[Gudinsdiv]

I'm guessing this is just an ignorant rant? because i have, can, and will take this thread to a 30 page offtopic rant on why Poland should be in the game. (any member here last summer will know my wrath )

btw, i think in civ V the colonization system should be improved to actually use real names of civs colonies, so england will spawn canada instead of some random civ. (But Canada won't be a playable civ, they could have a seperate leader, but there uu and ub would be british etc.)

Decaf tastes just like the real thing, buddy! Try it!

NOT an ignorant rant. I am being 100% supportive of Poland in the game--read my comments above concerning the HRE. Germany spent the better part of 1,000 years as hundreds of little states dominated by France, Austria or later Brandenburg-Prussia. Poland was at one time the largest country in Europe and has always had a distinct and--again I say <ahem>--independent culture(the <ahem> is for the largely un-united nature of the german states and a knock at the mid 20th century East-West thing). Germany had no such independence until the middle of the nineteenth century! But I guess the 20th century is the only one that counted? I don't think so!
Yes, Poland should already be in the game!

 

[TheLastOne36]

Decaf tastes just like the real thing, buddy! Try it!

NOT an ignorant rant. I am being 100% supportive of Poland in the game--read my comments above concerning the HRE. Germany spent the better part of 1,000 years as hundreds of little states dominated by France, Austria or later Brandenburg-Prussia. Poland was at one time the largest country in Europe and has always had a distinct and--again I say <ahem>--independent culture(the <ahem> is for the largely un-united nature of the german states and a knock at the mid 20th century East-West thing). Germany had no such independence until the middle of the nineteenth century! But I guess the 20th century is the only one that counted? I don't think so!
Yes, Poland should already be in the game!

Awww... i don't think i had a serious "quote war" since January now... i was looking forward to one...

 

[say1988]

Yes, Persia and Babylon had their shots, but by the time of Christ there was still a Judea, and no longer either a Persian or Babylonian empire!

Correct, no Persians or Babylonians, just puppets of the Roman Republic/Empire.

I am not saying that the Jewish people never had an impact, but the Jewish State had a minimal impact compared to the other civs in game.

 

[Gudinsdiv]

Awww... i don't think i had a serious "quote war" since January now... i was looking forward to one...

Heck, I'm mostly German. You got any land I can invade? That could start a brawl!

 

[Gudinsdiv]

Correct, no Persians or Babylonians, just puppets of the Roman Republic/Empire.

I am not saying that the Jewish people never had an impact, but the Jewish State had a minimal impact compared to the other civs in game.

Like Mali? Or the Holy Roman Non-Empire?
Holy crap, the Byzantines are in there!

 

[Gudinsdiv]

is there a delete for these posts--like when you double-post?

 

[TheLastOne36]

Like Mali? Or the Holy Roman Non-Empire?
Holy crap, the Byzantines are in there!

Mali was a really rich country and a vast kingdom during it's heyday, Many europeans went to learn there. HRE i agree, and the Byzantines = Romans mixed with a little bit of Greece.

Also no there isn't any land left for you guy to invade, although most of lithuania should be ours.

And no, the only way to get it deleted is to ask a mod to delete it. Although it doesn't really matter.

 

[say1988]

Like Mali? Or the Holy Roman Non-Empire?
Holy crap, the Byzantines are in there!

All three of those had a far greater impact that any Israeli state.
The Holy Roman Empire was the Dominant power in Europe in its heyday, and a significant power at any point when a few of its states worked together. That being said, it shouldn't be in the game. The German civ should cover the various German States and Holy Roman Empire.

The Byzantines? The only argument against them are they were Romans, or the were Greeks. They were one of the Richest and most powerful Empires in Europe. A centre of culture and trade. They acted as the buffer between Europe and the Arabs and Turks.

Mali had a large Empire in Africa and was definitely dominant in its region for hundreds of years. It was the richest kingdom in the world. A centre of Islamic learning.

Ans even if these civs shouldn't be in, that isn't a valid argument to include Jewish civ.