Why aren't the Jews a playable civilisation in Civ games?

[BalbanesBeoulve]

They're a bit of an odd case historically. The only time they've ever really had a country of their own is quite recent, and they're bit players on the world stage at this point. I know there are other questionable choices in game though, so it's not like including questionable civs is without precedent.

Bit players couldn't start world war 3. Israel very well could.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Yeah but like I said, Stalin did his atrocities in the past. Israel is doing bad things NOW. Actually now that I've thought about it a bit, just because a small number of Zionists running Israel at the moment are doing aweful things now doesn't mean 4000 years of history should be ignored.
They still should not be in the however, because I'd wager the greatness of King David and King Solomon were greatly, greatly exagerated when the bible was compiled.

Might make the game forbidden in Arabia just like Europe would have banned it if Hitler was in it.

 

[warpus]

Judaism is better represented in the game by.. Judaism. (ie. we already have it in the game)

There is a long list of civilizations that were far more influential than the Hebrews that should get the nod should the time come to add new civs to the game.

The religious influence is already represented in the game. What else do you want??

 

[holiday_hawk]

There is list of civs who should go in first, and the Hebrews never really had a great empire, and more often then not they were under someone else's control

 

[crazyunits]

if the UU for the Jews is Jesus then it'll be waaaaaay OP.

just for the fact that having him gives a +1 happiness in all your cities (turn water into wine/alcohol) and unlimited food (feed tons of ppl with small amount of bread) plus he walks in water oh come on that's just waaaaaay too much!

 

[holiday_hawk]

But if Jesus is in your country then the Romans will be drawn to you with the intent of conquering you

 

[Rusty Edge]

The issue often causes quarrels and closed threads.

If you want to play the ancient civ against other ancient civs, try this new mod by The Navy Seal

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6812242#post6812242



Or if you want to play Israel with an aircraft UU, against Hitler if you like,

you can try the mod in my sigline.


If those don't suit you, maybe you can try using the search function creation and customization forums.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

There is list of civs who should go in first, and the Hebrews never really had a great empire, and more often then not they were under someone else's control

Babylon ftw!

 

[Lexicus]

Hardest thing is to think of an UU, since much of their weaponry during the middle eastern wars were supplied by the US.

Mirage Jet.

 

[Willem]

Mirage Jet.

How about a nuclear bomb that no one knows for sure whether they have or not?

 

[Napalm102]

So is this going to be another voting options for the UN then? As soon as it is build countries will be able to vote to have half the country of poor bastard who has the most cities with judaism transform into a new state.

 

[mynystry]

hmmm... yeah, the case of the jews is quiet singular. they have had extreme influence in the development of western culture as a whole, but they didn't have never their own empire but they were (and are) an important group in many nations... united states of america being the latest example...

only till recent times after the creation of israel they got their own piece of land and they have expanded but the situation there is very hot as you know... but who knows, maybe they grow in power become an empire in the future... i doubt it, mainly because western power is diminishing as a whole, and chinese won't care much about backing israel against their muslims neighbours... but who knows what will happen in one thousand years.

so, i don't see a major reason why the jews couldn't be on the game, but in terms of empires i don't see why they could deserve to have a civ of their own, since they have always been a part of other civilizations.

putting the jews in the game maybe would be a reason for chicanos to start wanting their own civ! "chicanolandia"

 

[Archaelicos]

This seems to come up frequently, and they responses fall into one of several categories:

1. "Jew" is a religion.

Then you point the Hebrews and people say:

2. They never had an empire.

Then you point out that plenty of other Civs that are in the game never had one either.

3. They never had an organized state.

Then you point out Israel.

4. "I'm not anti-Semitic, but I hate Israel." Nevermind that we're talking about justifications for a "Jewish" civ, not an "Israeli" Civ.

Don't ever point this part out. The thread turns into a 10-page debate over the validity or lack thereof of Israeli sovereignty.

Eventually somebody will point to one of a half-dozen mods setting up Israel as a playable Civ and that generally settles it.

So go grab one and try it. I think there's ample justification for a "Hebrew" civilization. A lot of world history revolved around that culture, far more than revolved around some of the other Civs that have made their way into the game. I suspect that the Hebrews are excluded for a combination of the above reasons and to avoid political controversy.

 

[Archaelicos]

Yeah I know alot of the civs in the game have done horrible things, but the Israelis were committing war crimes like, last year.

Indeed. And none of the following Civs, or their modern-day ethnic/cultural/religious descendants, did any such thing last year:

America
England
Russia
China
Arabia
Persia
Zululand
India
Korea
Ethiopia
Khmer

The fact you're equating the ancient Hebrew peoples with the political policies of Israel *last year* as some kind of justification to exclude a long-extinct culture from a video game betrays much about your mindset. I think "Palestinian sympathizer" is a charitable description. I'm a Palestinian sympathizer, too, to the extent that innocent people (both Israeli and Palestinian) are caught in a political, religious, and ethnic struggle beyond their control. Your statements suggest a deeper animus. I recommend dropping the shovel.

It's not that I think the Hebrews should be a Civ (I think there are good arguments for and against) only that your reasons for wanting to exclude them stink, and betray what I suspect is a deep reservoir of irrational animosity that goes beyond simple empathy for an unjust situation.

 

[Rellz]

I actually do want to see the Jews in the game. They could have the ability to have its own religion intertwined with its civilization. Think about it. Judaism does not spread through missionaries but through family. As you build cities you automatically spread your religion. The downside is that you cannot spread your faith to you neighbors unless your city is conquered or through migration.

The leaders should be Solomon and David. I am not to sure about leader traits however. I do think that Solomon should be Phi/Ind because he is the wisest man who ever lived and built the temple of solomon (duh). David should be Pro/Cha but Churchill has those traits so maybe he should be Pro/Org since he united the kingdom (any Jews or other Christians correct me if I am wrong).

The relationships between religions is not accurately depicted as well as I would have liked. The friction between people without religion and people with religion is also not there. Honestly the Eastern and Western Religions should have more friction between them and the friction between similar religions (Christianity and Judaism; Hinduism and Buddhism) should create less friction. Free Religion should have a disadvantage as some of your neighbors may shun you for it (That's how Iran feels about The US).

How exactly do we voice our opinion to Firaxis though I want to see more changes in Civ V especially with moving in ancient eras (it takes twenty years to move one tile in an epic game at the games start and with proper railroads it will take 1 year to move 10 tiles? What the Heck)

 

[r_rolo1]

Think about it. Judaism does not spread through missionaries but through family.

This was not true in the past ( Judaism was a missionary religion ... Ethiopia and Iemen were Jews for a long time ) and it is not true now.

 

[Rellz]

This was not true in the past ( Judaism was a missionary religion ... Ethiopia and Iemen were Jews for a long time ) and it is not true now.

Very true but in Ethiopas case, The lady that Solomon cheated with (sheeba or bathsheeba) gave birth to a son who was technically part of the Jewish bloodline, who founded Ethiopia. Not to sure on yemens history but I am sure that at least one jewish family migrated there from ethiopia or israel and the missionaries came about make sure that there family was acting accordingly

 

[SharpMango]

The 'Jewish' Civilization has about as much place in civ4 as the khmer or the holy roman...ie...not the highest priority...i wouldnt mind if they were included, but i wouldnt notice if they werent either.

then again i really dont know how civ is developing, i am quite impressed by the sheer number of available civs in BTS. Who knows how many civ5 will offer?
They do have a very interesting history which deserves to be acknowledged. And i geniunely feel it is adequately acknowledged in the game via the religion mention. Jews have never been one of the 7 most populous religions in the world, but they have certainly had a massive effect on the world, and rightly deserve a place in that pantheon.

 

[SharpMango]

I actually do want to see the Jews in the game. They could have the ability to have its own religion intertwined with its civilization. Think about it. Judaism does not spread through missionaries but through family. As you build cities you automatically spread your religion. The downside is that you cannot spread your faith to you neighbors unless your city is conquered or through migration.

The leaders should be Solomon and David. I am not to sure about leader traits however. I do think that Solomon should be Phi/Ind because he is the wisest man who ever lived and built the temple of solomon (duh). David should be Pro/Cha but Churchill has those traits so maybe he should be Pro/Org since he united the kingdom (any Jews or other Christians correct me if I am wrong).

The relationships between religions is not accurately depicted as well as I would have liked. The friction between people without religion and people with religion is also not there. Honestly the Eastern and Western Religions should have more friction between them and the friction between similar religions (Christianity and Judaism; Hinduism and Buddhism) should create less friction. Free Religion should have a disadvantage as some of your neighbors may shun you for it (That's how Iran feels about The US).

How exactly do we voice our opinion to Firaxis though I want to see more changes in Civ V especially with moving in ancient eras (it takes twenty years to move one tile in an epic game at the games start and with proper railroads it will take 1 year to move 10 tiles? What the Heck)

there should be no difference in religious benefits in civ. It doesnt matter about historical accuracy. Purely on political grounds and to prevent religious animousity, they must all enable the same benefits. And religious tension should be downplayed. Yes it may lessen the 'realism'. But i really dont want to play a game with 'hindu-muslim' riots or genocide and stuff like that...

btw. Solomon and David would make great leaders for the jewish civ. As a matter of fact i came across David on the Giant Earth Map mod.. i crusaded on him to nick his holy city with 150 gold per turn lol!

 

[comatosedragon]

King Solomon of Israel would be a great fit for phi/ind; King David for cha/cre.

Altough I think the idea of playing as a Phi/Ind Civ would be awesome, isn't it a little too powerful? A little TOO much synergy, if you know what I mean?