Why aren't the Jews a playable civilisation in Civ games?

[brucedecatz]

Two interesting facts that I like to point out:

1) Although the game is called "civilisation", the civs are introduced in the game as "xxx empire" (see civpedia). Therefore, it is rather a bit of a stretch of imagination to see a "Jewish empire" or "Hebrew empire" or "Israel empire", since none of those is anything close to an empire.

But, read on...

2) Anyone wonders why the Koreans are there? Not only are they in Civ4, they are also in games like Age of Empires 2, Rise of Nations, etc, any game that is based on a combination of history and reality, but they never really influence the world as much as the Chinese or the Japanese, and were never large (though they are rich now; but being rich is not a good enough reason to be included in civ). The sole reason is marketing: a lot of the Koreans play games. So any game that wants to sell well in Korea has to have a playable Korean country. (I am not bashing the Koreans here; I actually enjoy playing as them, especially in Warlords, when Hwachas reign supreme over enemy SODs)

So maybe that comes back to a point that I was making earlier: the Jews/Israelis in particular don't really play games, is that true?

 

[frekk]

I think the chief problem in including the Jews is that they were never really more than a very minor kingdom of the ancient world. Their claim to fame is as the founders of the Abrahamic tradition; other than that, they were never terribly remarkable as a civilization. I think including them as a religion is a nice compromise.

There's a long, long list of empires waiting in line for inclusion and I think ancient Judea is pretty far down the list (and ancient Israel even farther). From that part of the world alone, there are other strong contendors - the Hittites, Assyrians, Phoenicians, and others.

 

[WhiteEagle22]

Got to remember though...the Israelite Empire reached from the Negev desert to past Damascus (the capital of modern day Syria). I am always surprised never to see an Israelite civilization in any game, as they did influence the world big-time. They were the only (or one of the very few) civilization in history to go from wanders to settlers in less than a generation (less than 70 years!).

 

[CoZe]

Anyone wonders why the Koreans are there? they never really influence the world as much as the Chinese or the Japanese, and were never large (though they are rich now; but being rich is not a good enough reason to be included in civ). The sole reason is marketing:

well, actually, if you ask this to a korean, he/she may tell you all human civilization originated from korea

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DCt95yW0a5U&watch_response

 

[frekk]

Got to remember though...the Israelite Empire reached from the Negev desert to past Damascus (the capital of modern day Syria).

That's a very small area for an "empire" nonetheless, just a fragment the size of most US states. It included those territories during part of Solomons' reign (not all of it, since many of the territories like Edom and Damascus revolted and broke away before his reign was over). The greatest extent of Solomon's reign is about 13 000 square miles. By comparison, Kentucky and Ohio are about 40 000 square miles each, Florida is 53 000, Michigan is 56 000, Maine is 31 000. An "empire" that could fit into Ohio three times over ...

Should we include Dal Riada and the Kingdom of Mercia too? Opening Pandora's box here ... I think inclusion must meet some minimal standards of geographic impact, and I'd put the lower end of that scale at a minimum of 50 000 square miles at greatest extent, which isn't very big (about the size of an average US state, or modern day Greece).

 

[Napalm102]

I think inclusion must meet some minimal standards of geographic impact, and I'd put the lower end of that scale at a minimum of 50 000 square miles at greatest extent, which isn't very big (about the size of an average US state, or modern day Greece).

So the Canada is in then?

 

[youngconserv]

The Jews definitely deserve a spot in the game.

Oh and Btw Israel has committed no such crimes, all Israel has done is protect itself from the crazies who want to destroy it. Israel is our only real ally in the mideast besides Afghanistan and Iraq.

So before you start whining about the palestinians and how they're "oppressed" and such look at the facts, in the 1940s the U.N proposed modern day Israel be divided into two separate states one for the Jews and the other for the Palestinians the Jewish government accepted, the Palestinians however did not. The Palestinians could've had their own country but no, they couldn't share so they resorted to terrorism. The Palestinians dug their own grave.

So then 6 countries ganged up on Israel and tried to destroy it, but Israel against all odds defeated the Arab aggressors, and now Israel is hated for it, hated for defending it self from the tyrannical islamic regimes in the mideast.

 

[frekk]

So the Canada is in then?

No, Canada would be disqualified for other reasons.

The Jews definitely deserve a spot in the game.

They already have one - Judaism. I don`t care about the moral character of Israel or any of that, it makes no difference to whether they should be included or not, but I just frankly don`t think that ancient Israel had enough impact (outside of religion) to be included, and modern Israel is just one of many middle powers in the modern world.

It`s easy to play them if you want to though, even without a mod. Just play the Sumerians or Babylonians, change the name to Israel or Judea, and the leader name to Solomon. Persia with Darius I might be a good template too, I think Darius looks appropriate for the part of Solomon and the apothecary is a reasonable Jewish UB. But it would be weird with Judaism in play ... Confucian Hebrews! Doesn`t make any sense, Jewish identity has stronger ties to the religion than to the territory (in fact, the connection with the territory is religious in nature).

 

[AfterShafter]

The Jews definitely deserve a spot in the game.

Oh and Btw Israel has committed no such crimes, all Israel has done is protect itself from the crazies who want to destroy it. Israel is our only real ally in the mideast besides Afghanistan and Iraq.

So before you start whining about the palestinians and how they're "oppressed" and such look at the facts, in the 1940s the U.N proposed modern day Israel be divided into two separate states one for the Jews and the other for the Palestinians the Jewish government accepted, the Palestinians however did not. The Palestinians could've had their own country but no, they couldn't share so they resorted to terrorism. The Palestinians dug their own grave.

So then 6 countries ganged up on Israel and tried to destroy it, but Israel against all odds defeated the Arab aggressors, and now Israel is hated for it, hated for defending it self from the tyrannical islamic regimes in the mideast.

You left the part out where Ariel Sharon rode in on a white horse and engaged in valiant combat with both Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein on the Death Star.

 

[say1988]

It is controversial, so it will likely be excluded.
The Hebrews/Israel didn't play a role of great importance, and were normally under foreign control.
There are plenty of other civs to include first (Assyrians and other ancient civs, Poland, etc..) And yes, I believe the Khmer have more of a place.
Just because there are a couple bad civs included (HRE, Native Americans) doesn't justify another one.

 

[youngconserv]

I think the Native Americans deserve to be in the game because it is a good what-if thing ya know?

Now the HRE DEFINITELY deserves to be in that game because of the fact it gave birth to the nations of spain france and germany. Look at the families the hasburgs who ruled Spain, The Netherlands, and Austria and Hungary all came from the HRE.

 

[The Fishman]

IMO they are too minor to be included. To be in CIV you have to be either a distinct civilisation or have had an empire, it seems. For example, native Americans didn't have an empire, but were their own civilisation. The HRE is part of the German civilisation, but had quite a powerful and famous empire. China has been both an empire and a civilisation. But the Israelis have had neither.

Furthermore, there are plenty of other civs which should be in Civilization, but aren't, such as the Mughals, the Sikhs and the Poles. Probably the biggest mistake was having the Ottomans instead of the Turks. The ancient Gokturk Empire was much larger than the Ottomans, it was on a similar order of size to Russia. The Uighur Khaganate was also massive and formed by people related to Turks, but that is also left out, along with the Huns (a Turkic people as well).

 

[Rvil Plum]

No, they should not be included for all the above stated reasons, and for the following.

There may be a lost civ that is rarely touched upon in history books, as there is so little archaeological evidence of their true trading network, military power and/or culture influence, and this lost civ are known as the "Sea People".

If you ignore the Old Testament as a source of historical fact, and simply rely upon archaeological dig evidence, and the written records of contemporary civs such as the Egyptians, etc, then it's very likely the Hebrew / Israelites were actually a sub sect of these "Sea People". Yes, such a theory creates huge problems with those people who have religious faith, as it contradicts what they believe to be holy writ, and it strikes to the heart of the origin myth of the Hebrew / Israelite people and the very founding of that state, and even when it was founded.

The theory itself is therefore a huge can of worms / ticking time bomb to those of a religious persuasion, which is a bit unfortunate, as much of the archaeological evidence to conclusively prove or disprove the theory lies within Israel itself, and for understandable reasons, the authorities are somewhat reluctant to approve research on a project that could disprove the foundation myths of their nation, national identity and very religion.

Interlinked with this enigma wrapped up in a puzzle, are other theories pointing to them being a sub-sect of the Canaanites. In fact there is historical rather than biblical evidence pointing in several different directions at once, so I am not saying that they are descended from the "Sea people", but there does seem to be some sort of a link with them.

If you ignore the dates of the Old Testament, and just look at the historical evidence, then the state of Israel, (not that there ever was such a thing in the modern sense of the word), lasted from about circa 1,000 BC to circa 100 BC, but during this brief 900 year period, they were invaded, occupied and governed for hundreds of years at a time by; a) the Assyrians, b) the Babylonians, c) the Persians, d) the Greeks, and finally e) the Romans. N/B: i think someone else invaded and occupied them as well, but I can't remember who it was.

So, as you can see, there never was a Hebrew / Israelite empire, and the cultural impact of the various Israelite Kingdoms and states during this 900 year period would have been negligible at best, given that they were just a minor occupied vassal of the various regional super powers of the time.

I would imagine they had a hell of a tough time, but their religion and its foundation myths, (i.e. "the promised land"), allowed them to hold it together until the Romans finally had enough of the constant revolts and expelled most of the Hebrews out of Israel, starting in the second century AD.

As for the "Sea People", well are they are a lost civ? The Egyptians fought wars against them, had diplomatic relations with them, and there is historical evidence now turning up in many countries that border the Eastern Med, that imply they were a large and powerful influence on that region circa 3,000 - 1,000 BC. There are theories that they were in fact so powerful, they caused the death and destruction of several contemporary mediterranean civs.

So a lost Bronze Age civ? Certainly looks like it. Intriguing.

PS: I genuinely and sincerely apologise if any of my above comments give offence to anyone with deeply held religious beliefs, as that was not my intention. I am 100% agnostic, and have no axe to grind when it comes to any world religion, or the followers of said religions. So, sorry for any offence caused, and may your god go with you.

Regards - Mr P

 

[Dabur]

oh boy , what a bunch of arguments , ... if they where to be followed then no civ at all should be in the game , .....


Rvil Plum , its obvious you have no idea about my religion or culture , if you want to come to Israel ill show you around and teach you all about it , your info is completely wrong , ...

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

The jews have always been a people who... how shall I put this... look more inward than outward. They had two signifigant kingdoms, Israel and Judea, but like Rvil Plum said, those kingdoms were usually provinces in larger empires like Babylon, Rome, and even England. As far as I know, neither of those two kingdoms ever managed to expand and conquer huge swaths of the Mediterranian.

I shall also point out that the conquest of Caanan probably never happened, because the infamous sacking of Jericho never happened. The city (and many others in the region) had been abandoned at the time Joshua supposedly destroyed the city, during the bronze age decline. (This is a penalty for them militarily, but a bonus for them spiritually, since if God had commanded Joshua to massacre all those people, then that would mean God is evil.)

So that leaves us with a pair a petty feifdoms at a crossroads of eastern and western trade routes, repeatedly conquered by outsiders, and yet somehow, the jews have managed to survive all that for 4000 years (stubborn people eh?) and yet have a culture which had signifigant influence in making the world the way it is today.

Do they belong in the game? Tough call. I think having the religion is enough.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

It is controversial, so it will likely be excluded.
The Hebrews/Israel didn't play a role of great importance, and were normally under foreign control.
There are plenty of other civs to include first (Assyrians and other ancient civs, Poland, etc..) And yes, I believe the Khmer have more of a place.
Just because there are a couple bad civs included (HRE, Native Americans) doesn't justify another one.

As a relative of Charlemagne, I am upset he looks like the Burger King. Try my spicy chicken sandwich for just a buck!

 

[WhiteEagle22]

As a relative of Charlemagne, I am upset he looks like the Burger King. Try my spicy chicken sandwich for just a buck!

Now that is funny!

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Judaism is a world religion which well deserevs being included in the game. The present country of Israel is a bit player, and it really has no connection to David's kingdom millennia ago except that modern Israelis are perhaps to some extent descended from the ancient Hebrews. So no, I don't think Israel should be included as a civ.

 

[GIO888]

Calm your gestures everyone.

There's this thing called "modding". Want to be King David of the Jews/Hebrews? Mod it!

I saw this thread and thought "Here we perambulate once again......."

 

[biggamer132]

The Jews definitely deserve a spot in the game.

Oh and Btw Israel has committed no such crimes, all Israel has done is protect itself from the crazies who want to destroy it. Israel is our only real ally in the mideast besides Afghanistan and Iraq.

So before you start whining about the palestinians and how they're "oppressed" and such look at the facts, in the 1940s the U.N proposed modern day Israel be divided into two separate states one for the Jews and the other for the Palestinians the Jewish government accepted, the Palestinians however did not. The Palestinians could've had their own country but no, they couldn't share so they resorted to terrorism. The Palestinians dug their own grave.

So then 6 countries ganged up on Israel and tried to destroy it, but Israel against all odds defeated the Arab aggressors, and now Israel is hated for it, hated for defending it self from the tyrannical islamic regimes in the mideast.

I agree. Iraq is a great ally and a strong bulwark against the spread of fanaticism and terrorism in the Middle East. Israel has also never attacked civilians or reduced entire cities to smoldering piles of debris.

OT: I think a Hebrew civ wouldn't be a bad idea. Regardless of size, they produced the two (by far) most influential religions in the Western world. I mean, I would put them in before the HRE.