Why conservatives don't like marijuana

[Senethro]

Nobody is obligated by compulsion or force to alleviate your pain that they didn't cause. A healthcare worker isn't your slave.
Likewise, police officers aren't obligated to protect you by placing themselves in danger. A firefighter isn't obligated to put his life in jeopardy to save you from a fire.
This sense of entitlement amuses me.

What does cause or responsibility got to do with it?

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

If someone has to provide you a service for a right you are claiming exists then cause and responsibility has a lot to do with it.

I can't come to you and tell you my wallet was stolen so you owe me your wallet unless you stole my wallet. My right to property was not infringed by you thus you are not responsible for the restitution of my wallet. You are not the cause thus you do not bare the responsibility. If on the other hand, I enter into an agreement with you to restore your wallet for example if you had an insurance policy with me in case your wallet was stolen then I would be obligated to replace your wallet or the equivalent thereof. When you go to the healthcare worker or the law enforcement worker or the fire service worker there is no contract that they sacrifice themselves to you for the harm they did not do to you.

 

[Senethro]

Yes, I could have read a dictionary if I wanted a definition.

Ok, a better rephrasing: what creates the responsibility then, and why does responsibility matter?

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

Yes, I could have read a dictionary if I wanted a definition.

Ok, a better rephrasing: what creates the responsibility then, and why does responsibility matter?

Moral or legal duty. It matters in the former because of personal integrity to who you are and in the latter to the integrity of your relationship to society. Hence the importance of the value structure being alleged as the basis for these things.

 

[Farm Boy]

If we're talking about responsibilities, it seems like you're arguing for some pretty mealy, weak, and pathetic police officers.

 

[Senethro]

Lets put aside the legal duty, because there are so many legals out there. In fact, in a neighboring nation to me there are duties to render aid, so there is a lot of variance.

Could you name the moral value that creates the duty? Why would this value cause different reactions to a drowning man, if you were somehow the cause of his predicament?

 

[Denkt]

I feel, especially about USA is that stuff is inverted in which the system protect the rich and punish everyone else and there is a tendency to blame poor people for being poor even thought like everything work against them while the rich is often claimed to be self made even though you can find a lot of information that social mobility in USA is more limited than in many other countries with stronger welfare systems with rich tend to have rich parents and poor tend to have poor parents.

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

Lets put aside the legal duty, because there are so many legals out there. In fact, in a neighboring nation to me there are duties to render aid, so there is a lot of variance.

Could you name the moral value that creates the duty? Why would this value cause different reactions to a drowning man, if you were somehow the cause of his predicament?

Legally there is slavery in some nations. That doesn't mean you should buy into those value systems. I don't mind putting those aside either.

The moral system of values could theoretically be nearly anything. In the drowning man example say I value the reduction of CO2 emissions and view the human race as harmful to that goal I could see the drowning man as beneficial to society even so far as to feel an obligation to ensure that he drowns. Alternatively, I could view the reduction of CO2 emissions as an essential duty of all mankind requiring the work of every human possible thus prompting an obligation to rescue the man drowning. In practice, however, there is a rather narrow range of possibilities consistent with the successful navigation of reality across a lifespan though these can be altered somewhat on a conscious level over that time.

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

I feel, especially about USA is that stuff is inverted in which the system protect the rich and punish everyone else and there is a tendency to blame poor people for being poor even thought like everything work against them while the rich is often claimed to be self made even though you can find a lot of information that social mobility in USA is more limited than in many other countries with stronger welfare systems with rich tend to have rich parents and poor tend to have poor parents.

I encourage you to read the Millionaire Next Door which concluded the opposite.

How exactly are you defining poor and social mobility?

 

[Senethro]

Legally there is slavery in some nations. That doesn't mean you should buy into those value systems. I don't mind putting those aside either.

The moral system of values could theoretically be nearly anything. In the drowning man example say I value the reduction of CO2 emissions and view the human race as harmful to that goal I could see the drowning man as beneficial to society even so far as to feel an obligation to ensure that he drowns. Alternatively, I could view the reduction of CO2 emissions as an essential duty of all mankind requiring the work of every human possible thus prompting an obligation to rescue the man drowning. In practice, however, there is a rather narrow range of possibilities consistent with the successful navigation of reality across a lifespan though these can be altered somewhat on a conscious level over that time.

Ok, you're clearly bashful about this as you're talking around the subject. I'll let you off the hook and stop probing. If you change your mind later and want to volunteer what you think, that'd be fine too.

 

[El_Machinae]

lol why would any human feel entitled to living and not dying. amazing stuff.

With healthcare and the US, it isn't really entitlement.

I realize that I need to work for Healthcare, but I'm boggled by people preferring a system where it costs 50% more than it need to.

 

[Denkt]

Take just higher education in USA, it is given high value, so you would assume government would make it accessible, which it in a way have done but by putting the burden on the individuals which make it so the people who have rich parents avoid the debt while those without may get lifelong debt which is one way the poor is kept poor and the rich stay rich and you probably can see the same thing in pretty much every system in USA, from car dependency, to healthcare, the system make it very hard for people without much money and also keep them from getting the money.

In other countries those stuff may be a serious problem as well, but I'm not sure any developed country come close to making it so difficult to get out of poverty.

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

Ok, you're clearly bashful about this as you're talking around the subject. I'll let you off the hook and stop probing. If you change your mind later and want to volunteer what you think, that'd be fine too.

I gave you direct and detailed answers including theoretical and real examples.
If you think you are using a hook in the discussion does that imply you are failing in a fishing expedition or an attempt to baiting?

I'd rather you just engage in your honest question since I'm giving you honest answers. Especially since playing your one-sided game just seems to be wasting everyone's time.

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

With healthcare and the US, it isn't really entitlement.

I realize that I need to work for Healthcare, but I'm boggled by people preferring a system where it costs 50% more than it need to.

I agree healthcare costs are ridiculous and largely due to mott and bailey licensing protectionism along with price fixing by insider trading insurance companies. All of this is made possible by legislative action that was intended to "protect the consumer." Dental and optometry practice both of which are far less regulated are much, much cheaper. Although admittedly if you stop breathing in a dental office their back up plan will likely be to call 911 and I wish I were joking on that point.

 

[Denkt]

Part of the issue with USA seems to be that the government don't seems to have much interest in helping normal people, some people have even claimed it is some sort of oligarchy which is maybe a bit too extreme but it seems to make decisions that favor the richest part of the population.

 

[Senethro]

I gave you direct and detailed answers including theoretical and real examples.
If you think you are using a hook in the discussion does that imply you are failing in a fishing expedition or an attempt to baiting?

I'd rather you just engage in your honest question since I'm giving you honest answers. Especially since playing your one-sided game just seems to be wasting everyone's time.

You're really not. Examining your last few posts you're made a threat to derail by bringing in all possible healthcare issues, gave a functional definition to a whyish/howish question, and have "explained" generalities as if didactically instead of specifics.

Now its projection.

If you want to engage, engage. I'm not going to chase you.

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

You're really not. Examining your last few posts you're made a threat to derail by bringing in all possible healthcare issues, gave a functional definition to a whyish/howish question, and have "explained" generalities as if didactically instead of specifics.

Now its projection.

If you want to engage, engage. I'm not going to chase you.

Again I asked you which topic you identified as not healthcare but your response was strangely absent. I didn't push it. Now read the last two lines of your comment and see if you can identify the hypocrisy here.

 

[Denkt]

From what I understand of USA healhcare cost is the money don't really seems to go to the doctors or other workers, they instead sound like they often have quite terrible work hours and insurence payment while the money probably go to the very top of the hospital system. Same seems true for the education system, high cost don't mean high wages for the workers.

 

[Senethro]

Again I asked you which topic you identified as not healthcare but your response was strangely absent. I didn't push it. Now read the last two lines of your comment and see if you can identify the hypocrisy here.

You were derailing by trying to expand the scope to an unreasonable extent. Now you're derailing by insisting upon discussing something I didn't say, to get the expanded scope in by the back door.

I do not wish to discuss an extremely wide healthcare in this thread.

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

We're talking about healthcare and moral value judgments for healthcare aspects. I don't see how those things are unrelated unless you are saying they are not aspects of healthcare.
We continued after you ignored the question down a narrow aspect of healthcare to which I have given you a complex and nuanced answer and you didn't want to discuss that either.

I'll leave it be. If you want to discuss it I'll pick it up later.