Why conservatives don't like marijuana

Gorbles

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I didn't say it was mutually exclusive in fact I clarified my position because it wasn't which I wouldn't need to do if it was mutually exclusive. Does that not make sense to you?
I didn't say you did. I'm pointing out that it isn't, because you were offering an alternative explanation. I just wanted to make it explicit that said explanation in no way stops it being criticism.

That said, the past two pages have been a great primer on your style of argument in general and I don't want to pressure you into any form of reply. Was just clearing up any ambiguity.
 

DaggerDigwillow

Reading: The Authority Gap by Mary Sieghart
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If thats nuanced then it was nuanced like the ingredient in a homeopathic remedy.
Again maybe you should just rephrase your question instead of just insulting me.
Really shouldn't be too much to ask for earnest dialogue.
 

DaggerDigwillow

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I didn't say you did. I'm pointing out that it isn't, because you were offering an alternative explanation. I just wanted to make it explicit that said explanation in no way stops it being criticism.

That said, the past two pages have been a great primer on your style of argument in general and I don't want to pressure you into any form of reply. Was just clearing up any ambiguity.
Your telling me that explicitly saying I don't intend it as criticism doesn't mean that isn't a criticism?
Well at this point if you see it as such I hope it was a beneficial criticism in your mind.
 

Gorbles

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Again maybe you should just rephrase your question instead of just insulting me.
Really shouldn't be too much to ask for earnest dialogue.
Being critical of your argument is not an insult to you, personally. Though to be fair this is a common mistake folks make, especially online.
Your telling me that explicitly saying I don't intend it as criticism doesn't mean that isn't a criticism?
Well at this point if you see it as such I hope it was a beneficial criticism in your mind.
Intent only goes so far. This is why being explicit, especially online where we're all just posts on a page, is the better approach. Plenty of people like muddying the waters, which makes it difficult for the rest of us.
 

Senethro

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Again maybe you should just rephrase your question instead of just insulting me.
Really shouldn't be too much to ask for earnest dialogue.

I'd really rather not, because when I ask a question about which moral value you find compelling and get given the runaround about how moral values might motivate a person in general, I stop assuming a person is answering in good faith.
 

DaggerDigwillow

Reading: The Authority Gap by Mary Sieghart
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Being critical of your argument is not an insult to you, personally. Though to be fair this is a common mistake folks make, especially online.
If you never get around to actually addressing the argument you might take that personally. Especially as an insult when it is wasting your time after repeated calls to address the argument. That's ok though some people value their time more than others. As I've said I'll leave it to see if he ever actually addresses it later. The initial complaint was he didn't want to go too wide in the argument when addressing aspects within healthcare now the objection is too narrow and diluted. At somepoint you start to suspect the problem isn't the explanations being provided.
Intent only goes so far. This is why being explicit, especially online where we're all just posts on a page, is the better approach. Plenty of people like muddying the waters, which makes it difficult for the rest of us.
It isn't a criticism.
Seems pretty explicit. Apparently, that isn't enough lol.
 
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DaggerDigwillow

Reading: The Authority Gap by Mary Sieghart
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If we're talking about responsibilities, it seems like you're arguing for some pretty mealy, weak, and pathetic police officers.
I'd agree with you on moral value but I'd suspect the reasoning for that would be our expectation of heroic nature within the context of the job and thus the laying on the police officer of our value system by definition to go above and beyond what should be expected The officer has no reason to share our moral values and in fact has a multitude of reasons not to share such a value. It should be noted that I'm not arguing that officers don't share our values but rather that if they didn't share our values it would be futile to hold them to the moral standards of our values.

The legal aspect of the supreme court rulings in the US has repeatedly sided with such officers who do not possess such values.
 

DaggerDigwillow

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Not when you follow it with a bunch of other stuff that don't actually demonstrate how it's not.

That's why the mutually-exclusive bit was important.
I understand where you are coming from and I understand why you couldn't defend your position to someone who doesn't accept your values.
Putting my demuring aside for a moment, are we good now?
 

DaggerDigwillow

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The ouroboros eats itself, at least.

So where do folks stand on weed, again?
Probably somewhere between avoiding the question and a pithy reply
It ain't much but it's an honest living.

I'm all for legalization but like alcohol and tobacco, I oppose the use of it.
 

schlaufuchs

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You've touched on the source of the abortion debate, euthanasia/assisted suicide, and a myriad of other topics while also seemingly conflating healthcare and living. Do you want to go down this path?

Must be nice to have lived a life that brought you to view healthcare as an optional luxury and not as an essential service where any disruption would literally kill you
 
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Valka D'Ur

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I must admit when I first learned Canadian public healthcare was a province level system and people needed like paid travel insurance just to access reciprocal care in the rest of the country I was astounded. That seems like a horrible deal for the small and poorly resourced territories and smallest and poorest provinces in particular.

On the other hand I was also very surprised when I learned that criminal law is federal level in Canada, hence why sex work and drug reform are only possible federally. You think two Westminster federations would work pretty much the same but nope apparently not.

Australian healthcare can get pretty expensive with gap payments with any sort of chronic conditions and the system almost forces us to get supplementary private insurance to avoid lifelong tax penalties... but man at least it's the same funding and identity cards anywhere you might move.
When I think of all the holidays we took in BC without health insurance, I shake my head. The highways were more dangerous then, as they were narrower, had fewer guardrails, and most major ones weren't twinned. I nearly drowned twice in Okanagan Lake, but fortunately both times there was someone there to help, or I'd have been dead before I was 12. We had cabins in places where bears and rattlesnakes were common, and nowadays I cringe at how nobody wore seatbelts back then ('60s and '70s).

None of us ever ended up in the hospital. Thank goodness.

Well if you are privileged enough to feel entitled to healthcare I can't say I'm surprised.
:huh:

There are a number of local, provincial, federal, and international agreements that say it's a human right. Yes, I am entitled to it.

It isn't a criticism. I understand where you are coming from and I understand why you couldn't defend your position to someone who doesn't accept your values.

Update: Let me try to explain so you can better understand what I mean.
I've had the same response from people who believe in religious values I don't agree with or ideological positions I don't agree with and that's ok.
You don't have to substantiate your personal values to me just don't expect me to agree with your values if you can't substantiate them to people who don't agree with your values.
Let's not bring religion into this.

You've touched on the source of the abortion debate, euthanasia/assisted suicide, and a myriad of other topics while also seemingly conflating healthcare and living. Do you want to go down this path?
There are other threads for these topics. Please don't 'splain things you've deemed unimportant to you, but are vitally important to others here.

If someone has to provide you a service for a right you are claiming exists then cause and responsibility has a lot to do with it.

I can't come to you and tell you my wallet was stolen so you owe me your wallet unless you stole my wallet. My right to property was not infringed by you thus you are not responsible for the restitution of my wallet. You are not the cause thus you do not bare the responsibility. If on the other hand, I enter into an agreement with you to restore your wallet for example if you had an insurance policy with me in case your wallet was stolen then I would be obligated to replace your wallet or the equivalent thereof. When you go to the healthcare worker or the law enforcement worker or the fire service worker there is no contract that they sacrifice themselves to you for the harm they did not do to you.
If I call the police and report a break-in, whether attempted or successful, with non-consensual sexual intent on the mind of the perpetrator (happened to me several years ago when a male tenant was determined to push his way in here), I am entitled to expect the police to do something about it.

They have other ideas, however. The manager was livid, the cops were useless, and the only real support I got was through the building security here, who made the effort to ensure that the perpetrator did not wander on any floors other than where he lived, and entered and exited the lobby without loitering or wandering off to the wing where my suite was.

I now have a security system that can be used to summon the paramedics (needed last December when I had a bad fall), the police (have not needed that yet), or the fire department (have not needed them either).

I agree healthcare costs are ridiculous and largely due to mott and bailey licensing protectionism along with price fixing by insider trading insurance companies. All of this is made possible by legislative action that was intended to "protect the consumer." Dental and optometry practice both of which are far less regulated are much, much cheaper. Although admittedly if you stop breathing in a dental office their back up plan will likely be to call 911 and I wish I were joking on that point.
Dental and optic are not considered basic health care here. My disability benefit covers me for the basics (thankfully; I'd be blind otherwise, as I had cataract surgery 3.5 years ago), but many others are not so lucky. They are NOT cheap.
 

Farm Boy

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I'd agree with you on moral value but I'd suspect the reasoning for that would be our expectation of heroic nature within the context of the job and thus the laying on the police officer of our value system by definition to go above and beyond what should be expected The officer has no reason to share our moral values and in fact has a multitude of reasons not to share such a value. It should be noted that I'm not arguing that officers don't share our values but rather that if they didn't share our values it would be futile to hold them to the moral standards of our values.

The legal aspect of the supreme court rulings in the US has repeatedly sided with such officers who do not possess such values.
Still just restating "crappy police officer."
 

Denkt

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Must be nice to have lived a life that brought you to view healthcare as an optional luxury and not as an essential service where any disruption would literally kill you
That is what happens when society starts to values money more than people and richer you are the more morally better you are. The irony is that such view tend to lead to a poor society as there is not much reason to develop things like healthcare, education and infrastructure to benefit everyone.
 

DaggerDigwillow

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Must be nice to have lived a life that brought you to view healthcare as an optional luxury and not as an essential service where any disruption would literally kill you
Thank you, I've certainly no idea or notion the level of privilaged required to demand that others serve me continously and perpetually 24/7 without failure or even the slightest inconvenience of interruption to maintain my existence. You are truly blessed to live in such an age modern medical miracles. No doubt your appreciation and gratitude serve as a rewarding aspect of the care you receive for the efforts of those providing it. I couldn't be more happy for your good fortune.
 

Denkt

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Thank you, I've certainly no idea or notion the level of privilaged required to demand that others serve me continously and perpetually 24/7 without failure or even the slightest inconvenience of interruption to maintain my existence. You are truly blessed to live in such an age modern medical miracles. No doubt your appreciation and gratitude serve as a rewarding aspect of the care you receive for the efforts of those providing it. I couldn't be more happy for your good fortune.
Instead of everyone by themself, what if everyone worked to improve society for everyone?
 

Gorbles

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Thank you, I've certainly no idea or notion the level of privilaged required to demand that others serve me continously and perpetually 24/7 without failure or even the slightest inconvenience of interruption to maintain my existence. You are truly blessed to live in such an age modern medical miracles. No doubt your appreciation and gratitude serve as a rewarding aspect of the care you receive for the efforts of those providing it. I couldn't be more happy for your good fortune.
Funnily enough, this reads as incredibly sarcastic. I wonder why?
 

Denkt

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Keep in mind even the rich in USA have worse life expectency than the rich in other developed countries and probably less free time as well so the inequality if not nessicarly that good for even them, probably because resources don't really go towards developing the country.
 
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