Why did Sui fail so catastrophically against Gouryeneo?
- Thread starter Karalysia
- Start date
Kraznaya
Princeps
Probably because "Gouryeneo" didn't exist.
That's possibly the worst spelling of Goguryeo that I've ever seen.
Will edit this post with a proper response.
Semi-Proper Response: Wendi's 598 invasion was mostly lolgistics, disease, and really crappy weather. In 612, the army's logistical situation had not improved, due to the massive floods and famines in the previous year in the Huanghe valley. In combat, the Sui were overly limited by Yangdi's attempts to keep full control over the entire army (a task with which he was not prepared to deal) and by the mobility of the Goguryeo forces, which allowed them to inflict heavy losses in the Sa campaign. The 614 campaign was called off because of the rebellion of Yang Xuangan, and the 615 campaign saw initial gains surrendered due to what was apparently a mass defection of conscripts.
So, basically, you can lay Yangdi's failures on his own inability to command such a large army, the large army's issues with troop quality and training (not necessarily a tactical factor, but a strategic one in the final campaign), his failure to effectively respond to the 611 floods, and his attempts to push attacks home despite a crap logistical situation caused by the 611 floods.
Will edit this post with a proper response.
Semi-Proper Response: Wendi's 598 invasion was mostly lolgistics, disease, and really crappy weather. In 612, the army's logistical situation had not improved, due to the massive floods and famines in the previous year in the Huanghe valley. In combat, the Sui were overly limited by Yangdi's attempts to keep full control over the entire army (a task with which he was not prepared to deal) and by the mobility of the Goguryeo forces, which allowed them to inflict heavy losses in the Sa campaign. The 614 campaign was called off because of the rebellion of Yang Xuangan, and the 615 campaign saw initial gains surrendered due to what was apparently a mass defection of conscripts.
So, basically, you can lay Yangdi's failures on his own inability to command such a large army, the large army's issues with troop quality and training (not necessarily a tactical factor, but a strategic one in the final campaign), his failure to effectively respond to the 611 floods, and his attempts to push attacks home despite a crap logistical situation caused by the 611 floods.
Kraznaya
Princeps
It's not really obscure; the name is where we derive "Korea" from.
His China stuff is a nice summary. Plus, I've only gone deeper into Ming and Qing history.
Might I add as well that perhaps the reason why Sui failed so bad was because it did no have no offence hero. You know what I mean?
Might I add as well that perhaps the reason why Sui failed so bad was because it did no have no offence hero. You know what I mean?
If the Sui were in such a poor position to be engaging in what is clearly a massive expensive campaign what were their goals in trying to invade Goguryeo? Conquest of the entire Korean Peninsula? Would they have stopped at Goguryeo or gone on to Bekajae and Silla? Did whatever that existed in Japan factor into any of this?
Is there any credence to the Chinese revisionism about Goguryeo as a regional Chinese dynasty?
Is there any credence to the Chinese revisionism about Goguryeo as a regional Chinese dynasty?
Wendi's campaign was chiefly motivated by his strategic interest in the Liaodong Peninsula, and his general claims to universal rule modified by the fact that he thought he actually could militarily subjugate Goguryeo, as opposed to the Tujue which were clearly out of the question. Since the invasion was mostly opportunistic, when it failed in 598, Wendi was more than happy to resume normal tributary relations.
Yangdi, on the other hand, seems to have gone all-out for conquest; the Liaodong territories that his armies occupied in 612 were incorporated into the military and civilian governmental infrastructure of China in the midst of the campaign. The initial casus belli, insofar as there was one, was the discovery of a secret Goguryeo envoy at the camp of the Tujue qan, but this was of course just an excuse. He then went overboard. It's not clear that all of Korea would have been targeted next, but there's no reason to suspect otherwise, since the various claims that Wendi and Yangdi extended over Goguryeo harkened back to Han/Jin control over the entire peninsula. But it's awfully hard to predict what Yangdi would've done.
The Sui did have relations with the empress of the Yamato, Suiko-tennō (yeah, I'm that uninventive), but they chiefly revolved around precedence. The Yamato sent several embassies to the Sui, initially to learn more about Buddhism, and Yangdi attempted to employ them as vehicles for spreading glorious Chinese culture. He also seems to have thrown a colossal hissy over Suiko-tennō's temerity to refer to herself in exalted terms similar to his own. Eventually the Japanese seem to have accepted a position of minor inferiority to the Sui in diplomatic parlance. There is some suggestion that the initial embassy to the Sui was to make sure that they didn't interfere with a Yamato military expedition against Silla (or even enlist Sui support), but there's really nothing to support this except for a late source, the Nihon shoki; it is nowhere in any of the versions of the Sui shu.
Eh? I wasn't aware that this was taken seriously by anybody.Karalysia said:
ParkCungHee
Deity
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Though something can be said for revisionism that says Goguryeo wasn't exactly Korean, either.
MajKira
King
To that time Koguryo was northern korean state and southern was Silla
Lol like OP said Gouryeneo, never expected it to be korean thread
Later Balhae emerged, descendants of korean Gogureo, Koguryo what ever means same
Bekajae is false, Baekje is righh
Korea in european sense was derived from koryo or goryo
Lol like OP said Gouryeneo, never expected it to be korean thread
Later Balhae emerged, descendants of korean Gogureo, Koguryo what ever means same
Bekajae is false, Baekje is righh
Korea in european sense was derived from koryo or goryo
aelf
Ashen One
I would add something about Zheng He and not having a ballsy hero, but I think that joke has died.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Interesting info! I knew Goguryeo were great fighters, but I did wonder about the details of how they managed to stop China numerous times. Thanks for the tactical details. Bad terrain and weather spell doom for many armies. 
aelf
Ashen One
Interesting info! I knew Goguryeo were great fighters, but I did wonder about the details of how they managed to stop China numerous times. Thanks for the tactical details. Bad terrain and weather spell doom for many armies.
You forgot the staple move of all great fighters - the flying shadow kick.
That terrible forced meme died a long time ago.
aelf
Ashen One
I guess by the standards of internet time, it has.
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