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Why did the Native Americans Not Advance Quickly?

Discussion in 'World History' started by Amenhotep7, Oct 3, 2004.

  1. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    This is why you don't go down the rabbit hole. Nothing beneficial ever comes about as a result of this line of dialogue. For either party.
     
  2. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

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    I know, but unfortunately most of our threads seem to be going the way of the white rabbit at the moment.
     
  3. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    When you argue that you disagree with some points it would be good to mention which ones. No need to be so mysterious.

    As for the Dutch language:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language#Development_phases

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch-language_literature

    Compared to:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German

    So German is only about as old or even actually younger than Dutch.

    Therefore how can you claim that Dutch language split from German in the 19th century ???

    I think you are conflating all continental West Germanic languages as "German".
     
  4. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    For the record, the answer to this question is "yes". Sometimes within a single poem. His work is kinda weird like that.
     
  5. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Jews before WW1 were usually counted as ethnic Jews regardless of what language they spoke.

    And for example in the Austrian province of Galicia most of Jews spoke Polish - according to Austrian censuses.

    As an example here are the figures for the city of Lviv from the Austrian 1910 census:

    Religion:

    Roman Catholic - 105,469
    Jewish - 57,387
    Uniate - 39,479
    Protestant - 3,128
    Orthodox - 560
    others - 106

    Total: 206,129

    Language (Umgangssprache):

    Polish - 172,560
    Rusyn - 21,780
    other Slavic - 800
    German - 5,922
    others - 103

    Total: 201,165

    There is a difference of 4,964 between the two "totals" - maybe language for those people could not be established or they refused to answer?

    There was no such category as "Yiddish" to choose from (Austrian authorities considered Yiddish to be a dialect of German). There was a list of languages to choose from, regulated - for censuses taking place since 1880 - by the ministerial decree of 6 August 1880. Those languages to choose from included (for the province of Bukovina): "German", "Czecho-Moravo-Slovak", "Polish", "Rusyn", "Slovene", "Serbo-Croatian", "Italian", "Romanian" and "Hungarian".

    I've not found the exact list of languages to choose from for the province of Galicia, but Yiddish was not included - just like in Bukovina.

    ================================

    And according to wiki:

    https://www.google.pl/search?q=reli...-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=AEjJVLbnCcnKPbW6gMgB

    Austrian censuses of the 19th century and the early 20th century (last census in 1910) in Galicia counted only religion and "Umgangssprache":

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Umgangssprache

    http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Umgangssprache

    Polish census of 1931 counted "mother tongue" and many Jews stated "Hebrew", even though they spoke both Polish and / or Yiddish fluently.

    The Polish census of 1921 by contrast had a question about "national identity" and indeed a large number of Jews stated "Polish".

    Neither Austrian census of 1910 (or any census before that) nor Polish census of 1931 had questions about ethnic identity.

    The closest thing to ethnic identity was in that census of 1921 - which asked about "narodowość" ("national identity" or "nationality").

    A good indication of identity before 1921 - but national identity rather than ethnic - can be the results of elections. Before WW1 most of Jews in Galicia voted for Polish parties, i.e. parties that were supportive of leaving Eastern Galicia as part of Poland in case if Poland regained independence, and which opposed Ukrainian nationalism. During the last election before WW1 the total number of votes for such parties was a bit higher than the combined number of Roman Catholics, Jews and Protestants - which indicates that not only majority of Jews but also some part of Uniates (Greek Catholics) voted for them.
     
  6. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus

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    According to current classification, perhaps, but it wouldn't be invalid to categorise it all as 'English, but occasionally non-standard English' or alternatively as 'nearly all in a foreign language with some works in English'. I'll grant you that he does use different dialects as the mood takes him, mind.
     
  7. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Moderator Action: How about we get back to the advancement, or not, of the Americas and leave European ethnicity for a different thread. Thanks.
     
  8. gyozelemlg

    gyozelemlg Chieftain

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    The native Americans lost the tech race because there never was a tech race.
    Sorry but this is a bias introduced by the game and by our narrow European perpective.
    Europe needed technological advancment because it was bottled up by the Ottomans and could only go to India by the sea. The native Americans had vast lands, lots of Buffalos and their own advanced spirituality. Why technology, then?
     
  9. Eketek

    Eketek Chieftain

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    The significance of technology has been grossly overstated.

    Disease is what did the natives in. Wiping out the vast majority of them made it possible to conquer the survivors.

    European colonial powers would not have been able to exert themselves outside of a few trading posts and forts, had they had to do so against against thriving indigenous nations - particularly if we are talking about guns before rifling, mass production, and conscription and during an era in which trans-oceanic shipping was expensive, dangerous, and unreliable.

    Without disease to wipe them out, indigenous nations would have acquired guns easily enough in time (particularly if they play politics and get themselves involved in European wars, as well as Europeans involved in their own).
     
  10. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    The Mapuche of South America apparently did adapt quite well to counter European warfare, as - it seems - they actually defeated the Spaniards:

    http://patagoniamonsters.blogspot.com/2014/07/loss-of-amerindian-genetic-diversity.html

    They lost only during the second war - by the end of the 19th century:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arauco_War#Occupation_of_Araucan.C3.ADa
     
  11. Crackerbox

    Crackerbox King

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    What Native Americans are proposed in the original post? The Native Americans of the current lands of the USA were comprised of 10,000 tribes. Do you mean all of the Americans i.e. all of South America, Canada, Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean?

    Making a generic statement like the original post is rather like a blanket statement, "Why didn't the Africans produce more technology?" It's a silly incomprehensible statement. Surely the OP didn't mean that?

    Some of the achievments early on in places within the Mayan culture or in Cahokia are rather spectacular when considering other places in Western Europe in those same time periods that seem backwards by comparison.

    Why not try again and narrow it down some? :crazyeye:
     
  12. Smellincoffee

    Smellincoffee Trekkie At Large

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    That's its entire point, actually. The first chapter is So-and-So's question, and so and so's question is the OP's.
     
  13. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    Would Cahokia really make Western Europe at the time seem backwards?
     
  14. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    The peak of the population size of Cahokia was around years 1100 - 1300.

    There was still a number of just as large and larger cities in Europe at that time.
     
  15. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    I (normally) live near Cahokia. I've visited it several times. Archaeology is still turning up new information, but overall, it had a big population but little else. You can't reasonably say it made Western Europe look backwards.
     
  16. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    "A big population" is more than it sounds like, though. It implies a complex social and economic structure which you couldn't achieve simply by piling nomadic bands into one place.
     
  17. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    Tenochtitlan supposedly was larger than European cities of its day, possibly the equal of the Chinese cities.
     
  18. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    I haven't touched this thread in forever, but its important to remember that it took a good 20k-30k years more for humanity to reach the Americas by most historical estimates than it did for humanity to reach Europe. Tenochtitlan is just one of many examples of numerous prosperous cities in the history of Mesoamerica and frankly one of later ones to emerge.

    Around the year 1,000-1,100 Paris's population was only around 20,000 - there were numerous cities in Mesoamerica with far larger populations [and of course the relevant equally large social structures that accompanied them]. Between 1,000 BC- 300 A.D. El Mirador was a city that had a larger urban sprawl than Los Angeles does today. Teotihuacan during its time was considered one of largest cities in the world, if not the largest. Considering many population estimates in Mesoamerica are gradually/continually considered to be higher than initial estimates as archaeologists and time do their work, it wouldn't surprise me if Mesoamerica was once more densely populated than China.

    Considering all this, if we remember that Europeans had theoretically a 25,000 year head-start, I think it just goes to show how lethargic European development was in truth. If we were to put 1400s Americas vs Europe in the 1,400s (and take away 25,000 years of European history) then we wouldn't even have the title of this thread as a thing
     
  19. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    It's not as much about size as about number - Late Medieval Europe had a lot of smaller and bigger towns, a dense urban network.

    European High & Late Medieval chartered town was also unique in global scale in terms of its organizational model - urban citizenship, autonomy and separate legal status. In no other civilization towns enjoyed autonomy, and in no other civilization legal status of townsmen was different than legal status of peasants. In China there was no legal difference between peasants and townsmen, towns and villages. The only comparable entity was Ancient Greek polis.

    In China every city and town was at the mercy of the Emperor, while in Europe towns enjoyed autonomy that kings & princes had to respect.

    The first step forward from Early Medieval patrimonial monarchy was emancipation of nobles, while the second step was emancipation of towns.
     
  20. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    On the other hand, what was the size of densely populated area in Mesoamerica ???

    Mesoamerica has the same problem as Egypt - limited (in the north by deserts & mountains) size of good terrain. For example in 1938 Egypt had 15,5 million people, which seems to be a modest number for such a large country, but inhabited area of Egypt was only 35,000 km2, or the same size as Holland.
     

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