Why do many of you hate the UN so much?

So, the Security Council should technically be:

US
UK
France
China
Russia
India
Pakistan
Isreal
South Africa

Potential seats go to Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Syria, Sudan, Lebanon, Libya, Algeria, Egypt, etc., right?
 
Good to see politics in my hometown hasn't changed a bit. That feeling of splendid isolation from the world's problems really does make life easier, doesn't it?

PS very funny with the carrier. Pity there's no superferry avatar that I can take it on with.

R.III
Fernwood boy

Fernwood, you say? Hey, I think that's where my apartment is too. Sorta hazy on that though. Like my last place, where I was in denial that it was actually not in Esquimalt ;) .

Sure, we're pretty isolated here, but please don't confuse me with one of the plenty of left-wing anti-WTO protester-types. I don't fit into either of the two majorities here (those being hippies and retirees). I just don't see any role for NATO in which it doesn't create for itself to remain useful. If it would like to change it's mandate to operate globally, I'd support that, and I suppose alliances are great for continued cooperation, so I'm not adamant that it should go.

Sorry to go off-topic.
 
Originally posted by rmsharpe
Here's an even better compromise.

By the way, I granted some parts of the Adriatic to the Slavs ;)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Frickin' hilarious. Genuine lol.

Btw, for some odd reason, pellaken's response to my rant was not up when I replied last. Pelleken, I will get you later on private e-mail on this so as to not clutter up or otherwise impede the UN bashing, which I so adore.

Oh and Pellaken you should check in on the sorry state of Russia in Civdip 001. We've hit 1905. I really do think you could have done better...

R.III
 
I'll post a special thread on the bosnian war, and copy some arguments. so, make 1 more, then I post the thread :)

also, you mean the diplomacy game?
if you guys wanna start one on BOUNCED I'd be willing. I'm just about to go game hunting anyways.

my last post is at the top of the last page

the most powerful military nation on earth are: {aka, in security coucnil}
USA
China
Russia
France
UK
South Korea
North Korea
Pakistan
India
Iran
Iraq {was anyway...}
Israel
Germany
Brazil
Turkey
Argentina {in case Iraq dosent qualify}

Egypt
Japan
Spain
South Africa
^other "strongies"
Poland?
Ukraine?
Mexico?
^possible"strongies"
Australia
Canada
Holland
Sweden
Romania
Indonesia
Nigeria
Kenya
^other powerful nations
now THESE nations {I know there's alot} should be in the security council.

these are the 31 most powerful nations on earth. I will now place them in groups:
SuperPower:USA
MajorPower:China Russia France UK South Korea North Korea Pakistan India Iran Iraq Israel Germany
Power:Brazil Turkey Argentina Egypt Japan Spain South Africa Poland Ukraine Mexico
MinorPower:Australia Canada Holland Sweden Romania Indonesia Nigeria Kenya

each group should have a certain ammount of powers. like, the bigger ones get more then 1 vote, and the biggest can veto, but a certain number of veto's are needed, or something...
 
North Korea & Iraq are major powers?

Can we make one qualifier... if you can't even feed your population, you're not a major power. I don't care how many missiles they get if the people manning them starve to death. Japan has a bigger military budget than ANY of the 'great' powers you've listed, they just don't get their rocks off by threatening their neighbors and launching missiles around, so they don't qualify as a great power?

Traditionally, great powers have had that distinction by power PROJECTION. That means, it doesn't matter how 'powerful' they are if they can't project that power to other parts of the globe. Missiles and nuclear weapons make that a difficult qualifier, but I find it hard to believe that a 3rd world country that can't support its population without outside assistance become a 'great power' only because they have a rusty missile with a big nuke on the end.
 
I keep failing to see how France is a major power. They've been the world's big-mouth pacifist (anyone remember who wussed out on Reagan's bombing of Qadaffi in '86?) since the 1954 French Indochina war.

I don't have anything against France, it's just that they need to lose this image of being a major power. They've got minimal influence in the world outside of their economics.
 
Originally posted by Greadius
North Korea & Iraq are major powers?

Can we make one qualifier... if you can't even feed your population, you're not a major power.

:lol: :lol: :lol: That's as good of a place to start as any.

Originally posted by Greadius
Traditionally, great powers have had that distinction by power PROJECTION. That means, it doesn't matter how 'powerful' they are if they can't project that power to other parts of the globe. Missiles and nuclear weapons make that a difficult qualifier, but I find it hard to believe that a 3rd world country that can't support its population without outside assistance become a 'great power' only because they have a rusty missile with a big nuke on the end.

Yeah, I think another qualifier's got to be that a great power should be the nation that aids other nations, as opposed to requiring aid themselves.

They at least need their own sphere of influence rather than being in someone else's..


Originally posted by rmsharpe

I keep failing to see how France is a major power.

They've got the hydrogen bomb....

Where does France rate economically???? I'd guess around 7th or 8th in the world, but I might be way off.....
 
Pell, your list is interesting, but it raises two key points.

1. We couldn't even get the people on this thread to agree to the different status levels and who belongs there, there is no way we will get nations to buy into it.

2. We still need a system that can adapt to a changing world. Fayedi is never going to accept such a system if it doesn't include a provision that will someday allow for China to achieve the highest tier, and neither will China itself.

RM, France:

Nukes, carriers, well trained and well equiped army, strong economy, One of the major parties in the EU. Not to mention they have convinced the world to use French at the Olympics :confused: and they really know there way around the grape ;) .

There not up there with China and Russia, but they are a power based upon ability, not necessarily their recent use of it.
 
It was something like that. Despite France's ability to crush hundreds of Myanmars, Rwandas, and Chads, I don't exactly see them as a threat.

France would never use nuclear weapons for territorial gain, and therefore, in my opinion, no real threat. I know that the US, UK, Isreal, etc. would not, but, they are generally pro-militarism in their policies.
 
Originally posted by VoodooAce
They've got the hydrogen bomb....

Where does France rate economically???? I'd guess around 7th or 8th in the world, but I might be way off.....
They probably have two hydrogen bombs that are rusty and sitting in a shack behind someones house. But, the French do have the only non-American Nuclear Aircraft carrier in the world. They also produce their own line of rifles, tanks, and combat aircraft, which is unusual.
And they are in the top 7 economies in the world (member of G-8). So I suppose they are still a pretty great power. I think France's importance in world politics is underline by the fact that the French are very 'inconsistant' in who they agree with. A good X factor, in my opinion.
 
Threat or not, you shouldn't underestimate France's influence in the world, especially in its former colonies. The language is just one factor there. So who is a world power then if not France? The US? Okay. China? Just militarily. Russia? Same. Germany? Just economically. The UK? Just slightly in both. Others? Don't think so.
 
Think about this, though: what was the last major international policy that was constructed around, or assisted by, France?

I don't think a kind of quasi-neutrality shared by France and the smaller French-speaking states around it should be forging international policy.
 
"Think about this, though: what was the last major international policy that was constructed around, or assisted by, France?"

The Vietnam War? :lol: Well, what was the last major international policy constructed by China? I would call China more "isolationist" or "neutral" in character than France. Traditionally, that is what they have just about always been too. Yet they definitely have the wherewithal to do otherwise if they so choose. Same with France.

France is the main Western influence in most of Africa (i.e. its former colonies), and the currency of many African countries is in fact the franc (the CFA franc, but I believe it's quite closely pegged to the franc). I believe most trade between the West and Africa passes through France, and the French Community (which includes its former African colonies) is their equivalent of the British Commonwealth. France definitely projects a sphere of influence. Does China? Not as much, although that is changing as we speak.

"I don't think a kind of quasi-neutrality shared by France and the smaller French-speaking states around it should be forging international policy."

While a forum to discuss matters, where states can try to persuade other states to their point of view, is harmless and probably good in most cases, actually voting on things like, should Israel be allowed to secure its defenses against aggression using hard-won territory captured from aggressors, is ludicrous. The Israelis have to deal with the consequences of these decisions far more than the Saudis or Pakistanis, so the latter shouldn't have a say in it. That's just one example.

So personally, I don't like the idea of other nations dictating policy to a nation or nations. It usually mucks things up worse than what they may have been otherwise. The reason for that is that people who are local and more involved in local situations often see things that distant powers cannot (or choose not to see, maybe). It is like meddlesome inlaws that don't know the day-to-day problems of a particular marriage intimately, yet insist on butting in--they often cause worse problems with the marriage if they are taken too seriously. A crude analogy, but often the case. So France shouldn't do it, and frankly NO nation, not even the US, should do it.

Not saying that all nations should be completely isolationist--I'm glad we stopped Hitler--but we should at least have the attitude NOT to be inclined to butt in unless it is our business, or the world is seriously threatened. If the UN is to continue to exist, this understanding should be infused into it somehow (I'm not sure how, but we can think of ways)--history is rife with violence and tragedy that sprang from people, and nations, not minding their own business. Perhaps keeping it as a "safe forum", and not letting it vote on just ANYTHING, is a start....
 
The thougt occured to me today that someone (here or elsewhere) stated that the UN was a precursur to a world government. I wonder if the world is ready for a direct precursur to world government yet? This may seem a bit strange, but perhaps we should have the proper focus to have the UN be the precursur to the precursur to the precursur, or something like that.

What I am getting at is that the world is no where close to one world government, and perhaps aren't we deluding ourselves a bit to expect the UN to be its forerunner? I can see it in future retrospect as being one of the steps, but more akin to how the Magna Carta was a step towards the US Constitution as opposed to the writings of philosophers such as Locke. One was a background influence, the other some of the direct inspiration.

This is not to bash the UN, but to assert that perhaps we are trying to use it the wrong way. The analogy of the people trying to get the car to start from the back seat is good, but I think a more apt one is of someone driving the car and expecting it to fly. Even though the car is useful and they are using it in an appropriate manner, it just isn't going to fly no matter how much they want it to. Along those same lines, much of the technology used in cars went into airplanes, so it is not that we are wasting our time in the car, but that we just aren't ready to fly.

Questions, Comments, Snide Remarks? :)

(I have the ability to think up this sh!t before 8:00 AM, there should be a job somewhere that could utilize that skill and pay well).
 
I noticed with humour the note about France being "The world's big mouth pacifist since 1954."
Anyone remember the Suez Crisis in 1956, where the battleship Jean Bart took part in the Anglo French bombardment and invasion? (which could of sorted Nasser and those A-rabs permanently if the US, USSR, and UN hadn't been so bloody enlightened, anti-imperialist and hasty:p ;) )
Anyone remember the goings on in Algeria in the late 1950s and early 1960s?
Anyone remembered 2eme REP going into Kolwezi and rescuing hundreds of Europeans from death at the hands of rebels?
Anyone remember the Rainbow Warrior?;)

It would be nice if people were to get their facts right, but that is too much to ask...;)

And knowltok, we can use people with such early morning skills in the Evil Global Dictatorship, specifically in the post you have already expressed an interest in, Minister for Women and Other Alien Races, and also the Directorate of Spoons. Please apply with your credentials to the nearest shifty looking man on the corner of your street.:D
 
Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
It would be nice if people were to get their facts right, but that is too much to ask...;)

Would it be Civfanatics if that were the case? Would you have had the joy of making this correction? Perfection isn't all it is cracked up to be, what could we use to feel superior and to laugh at?

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
And knowltok, we can use people with such early morning skills in the Evil Global Dictatorship, specifically in the post you have already expressed an interest in, Minister for Women and Other Alien Races, and also the Directorate of Spoons. Please apply with your credentials to the nearest shifty looking man on the corner of your street.:D [/B]

While the Directorate of Spoons has obvious power over the teaming masses, I am going to opt for the other office. I know my chances for advancement would be greater with control of all facets of spoon manufacture, distribution, and usage, but I will take my chances with the MWOAR. Though it would be interesting to only sell spoons with holes in them for a while....:flamedevi
 
Originally posted by Greadius
Can we make one qualifier... if you can't even feed your population, you're not a major power.

That would cut out alomost all nations. there are only around 1/2 dozen net food exporters. I am not very clear on the number of barely self sufficient, but it is likely less than 20. USA. over the last fifty years has acounted for well over half of the worlds net food exports, in some years being over 75%. Other perenniel net exporters are Canada, Australia, Thailand.
 
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola


That would cut out alomost all nations. there are only around 1/2 dozen net food exporters. I am not very clear on the number of barely self sufficient, but it is likely less than 20. USA. over the last fifty years has acounted for well over half of the worlds net food exports, in some years being over 75%. Other perenniel net exporters are Canada, Australia, Thailand.

I don't think it matter whether the country either produces enough food for itself or can buy enough food, because either way the population is fed.
 
I didn't know my goverment was supposed to feed me... I always bought food in the supermarket....
 
Originally posted by Pellaken
I'll post a special thread on the bosnian war, and copy some arguments. so, make 1 more, then I post the thread :)

also, you mean the diplomacy game?
if you guys wanna start one on BOUNCED I'd be willing. I'm just about to go game hunting anyways.

my last post is at the top of the last page

the most powerful military nation on earth are: {aka, in security coucnil}
USA
China
Russia
France
UK
South Korea
North Korea
Pakistan
India
Iran
Iraq {was anyway...}
Israel
Germany
Brazil
Turkey
Argentina {in case Iraq dosent qualify}

Egypt
Japan
Spain
South Africa
^other "strongies"
Poland?
Ukraine?
Mexico?
^possible"strongies"
Australia
Canada
Holland
Sweden
Romania
Indonesia
Nigeria
Kenya
^other powerful nations
now THESE nations {I know there's alot} should be in the security council.

these are the 31 most powerful nations on earth. I will now place them in groups:
SuperPower:USA
MajorPower:China Russia France UK South Korea North Korea Pakistan India Iran Iraq Israel Germany
Power:Brazil Turkey Argentina Egypt Japan Spain South Africa Poland Ukraine Mexico
MinorPower:Australia Canada Holland Sweden Romania Indonesia Nigeria Kenya

each group should have a certain ammount of powers. like, the bigger ones get more then 1 vote, and the biggest can veto, but a certain number of veto's are needed, or something...

I would slightly edit this list, taking into consideration economic power as well:

Major Powers: UK France Germany China Japan Russia India
Local Powers: Turkey Israel Iran Iraq Pakistan N. Korea S. Korea S. Africa Egypt Syria Brazil Mexico
Minor Powers: Italy Netherlands Poland Ukraine Libya Argentina Canada Australia Philipinnes Indonesia Nigeria

Now spot who is missing! ;) :lol:
 
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