Why do many of you hate the UN so much?

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by sgrig


I would slightly edit this list, taking into consideration economic power as well:

Major Powers: UK France Germany China Japan Russia India
Local Powers: Turkey Israel Iran Iraq Pakistan N. Korea S. Korea S. Africa Egypt Syria Brazil Mexico
Minor Powers: Italy Netherlands Poland Ukraine Libya Argentina Canada Australia Philipinnes Indonesia Nigeria

Now spot who is missing!

Sweeden, Kenya, and Romania were all on the first list, but left off of yours. Or were you refering to some other nation ?

 

[amadeus]

He left off the United States, obviously.

 

[Dell19]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
He left off the United States, obviously.

Really?!?!?

 

[VoodooAce]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
He left off the United States, obviously.

Obviously.

 

[IceBlaZe]

I think israel is more than a local power. We have our own line of weapons, our own nuclear powers, our own far-raching missiles developed for our own sattelites.
or maybe im just over rating israel, but thats not a surprise considering I read on abcnews that israels current army is more advanced, better diployed and stronger than what NATO is currently.

oh, i forgot to mention the UN still doesnt let the Israel Red Star of David (Health agency) into the health agencies union or what ever it is, while it lets the red muslim-thing and the red crescent in. isn't that racism?

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Israel has at least 4500 miles of reach. Enough to get to Entebbe Airport at Kampala. That is long enough to get to the majority of Europe.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

As for futrue power think a few dozen years into to the future when food production stalls(with soil limitation and depletion, fishing stocks dwindling, climate change causing disruption in reginal agriculture, evirionmental concerns limiting some agricultural pratice, depletion of aquifers, build up of salt in irragated soils) it may already be beyond long tem sustainable levels. Then, when not even wealth guarantees a nation will acquire enough food (there just is not enough to go around, regarless of how the tranportation and distribution systems are rampt up), all nations will be lining up to lick the boots of the few net exporters.
"France hungry? Britain hungry?, sorry ther is only enough export availble to fee one of you. Now, what have you done for us lately to influence our decision?"

 

[amadeus]

In 1942, we all said we'd be dead by 1962...
In 1962, we all said we'd be dead by 1982...
In 1982, we all said we'd be dead by 2002...

Even after all that negativity, we're all still alive.

I don't think food production is going to stall, if anything, it's going to increase with more advanced irrigation techniques.

 

[Pellaken]

France is 8th? no no no...

in economey alone:
USA
Japan
Germany
France
UK
Italy
Canada
--------------G7
Holland
and so on...

in TOTAL power, would be my previous list.

"Major Powers: UK France Germany China Japan Russia India
Local Powers: Turkey Israel Iran Iraq Pakistan N. Korea S. Korea S. Africa Egypt Syria Brazil Mexico
Minor Powers: Italy Netherlands Poland Ukraine Libya Argentina Canada Australia Philipinnes Indonesia Nigeria "

India dosent have enough power to rank as a major... they too poor!
Meixco isent that powerful... me-no-think

 

[sgrig]

Originally posted by Pellaken


India dosent have enough power to rank as a major... they too poor!
Meixco isent that powerful... me-no-think

It's just didn't see right to me to put India in the same league as Israel! With a population more 170 times larger!

Concerning Israel, as some posts disagreed with me, I can hardly see how a country with a population of 6 million can be considered as a major power! True, Israel has nukes, a strong, well-trained, well-equiped army and air force, but it still remains a local power - which by definition means that it is only involved in the region just around it. Israel as a country only has influence in the Middle East region and nowhere else. Of course it's culture is spread all over the world, but that's a different story.

Concerning use of GDP data:

There are two different ways of working out GDP, and they yield very results. One way is just the basic method of working out how much worth were the goods and services produced in country in year. The other may is working out GDP in terms out PPP (purchasing power parity), in which there is also a correction to take into account different prices in different countries.

The GDP PPP ranking is as following (according to World Bank):
1. USA - $9.7 trillion
2. China - $5 trillion
3. Japan - $3.3 trillion
4. India - $2.4 trillion
5. Germany- $2.1 trillion
6. France- $1.43 trillion
7. UK - $ 1.4 trillion
8. Italy - $1.36 trillion
9. Brazil - $1.3 trillion
10. Russia - $1.2 trillion
11. Mexico
12. Canada
13. S Korea
14. Spain
15. Indonesia
16. Australia
17. Argentina
18. Turkey
19. Netherlands
20. S. Africa

However the conventional GDP ranking is more familiar:
1. USA - $9.9 trillion
2. Japan - $4.7 trillion
3. Germany - $1.9 trillion
4. UK - $1.4 trillion
5. France - $1.3 trillion
6. China - $1.08 trillion
7. Italy - $1.07 trillion
8. Canada - $690 billion
9. Brazil - $590 billion
10. Mexico - $570 billion
11. Spain
12. India
13. S Korea
14. Australia
15. Netherlands
16. Argentina
17. Russia
18. Switzerland
19. Belgium
20. Sweden

So I use the PPP ranking as justification of leaving India in major powers list.

 

[Kennelly]

"Major Powers: UK France Germany China Japan Russia India
Local Powers: Turkey Israel Iran Iraq Pakistan N. Korea S. Korea S. Africa Egypt Syria Brazil Mexico
Minor Powers: Italy Netherlands Poland Ukraine Libya Argentina Canada Australia Philipinnes Indonesia Nigeria "

A little more critics to this list:Major powers are Ok,but some Local and minor powers are doubtful.Indonesia and Nigeria aren´t local powers?But Syria is?Nigeria is taking part in almost every military action in Africa,is the biggest country in Africa and has huge oil resources.Indonesia is the most muslim-populated country in the world and surely has more influence in its region than S.Korea has.

Didn´t we have a similar topic a few weeks ago?

 

[IceBlaZe]

Seems like the united states leave everyone far far behind.

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Seems like the united states leave everyone far far behind.

Or you all have a lot of catching up to do. We're not slowing down

 

[IceBlaZe]

Israel:
GDP: purchasing power parity - $110.2 billion (2000 est.)
From the CIA fact book.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

Lets make Israel in the size of USA, and multiply it by 36.6
We get 4.04 Trillion.
Not Bad

Reviewing our GDP, its excellent considering we are a miniature state with about only 6 million citizens.
Israel is smaller than new jersey.


EDIT: Just do you know, both the UK and USA have the same powers to completely destroy world economy, even tho USA's GDP is bigger. If something happens in the UK, it happens to the world. If something happens in USA, it happens to the world. When you talk about American Economy you are actually talking about the worlds economy. Thats how it is.

 

[VoodooAce]

Originally posted by Pellaken
France is 8th? no no no...

in economey alone:
USA
Japan
Germany
France
UK
Italy
Canada

Well, I know California isn't a nation, so it wouldn't actually displace any of the nations on a list like this, but we recently passed both Italy and France in economic size.....up to the fifth largest economy in the world. I'm not sure if the list people referred to when making this statement (I just heard it on the local news) had the UK above France or below Italy....I'm guessing above, as that would put them, the US, Japan and Germany ahead of California....giving us that number 5 spot.

Swimming pools. Movie stars. And lots of money! Wish I had some of it.

 

[Pellaken]

California would slot in just ahead of canada. its gor a few less people than we do, but they have more tech.

Israel is pretty powerful, not only cause of its:
Economey
Military
Resoruces
Technolegy
but also cause of its Allies. these are the some of the things generally accepted to be used in the calculation of the powerful nations of the world. India has a poor economey, but many people. it has poor tech, but does have nuclear weapons. if India and Israel were ever in a war, India would win. but if Israel DECLARED WAR ON India, after the economic sanctions, and allies taking sides, I'd say it'd be a fair fight. {yes, I know I'm wrong somehow, but the fact is... India's poor!}

anyways. your GDP is skewed. China is down for {in my 2001 book} is listed at 4.42trillion and 3,600 gdp Per Capita {P/C}
and the netherlands is listed at 348.6 billion, yet 22,200PC. Remember, China {and India} have a billion people each minimum. this si why thier GDP is off. you must add in things like the PC and the QoL{Quality of Life} and the SoL{standard of living} and other things.

the military should be calculated like so:
Supplies {guns, tanks, ships, planes}
Training
Numbers
Base Technologey {Nukes, yes or no}
Adv. Technologey {Nukes can go 20 miles or 20,000 miles}
ability to turn civilians into soldiers, and the speed it can be done

non-military should be calculated like so:
Population
Economey total
Economey PC {per capita}
Resoruces {oil, metals, trees}
Size {Austria and Sweden both have 8 million people, but austria is crowded}
SoL {tends to be more of "everyone's rich"}
QoL {tends to be more of "how rich is the richest guy"}
^^or is it reversed...???
Export-Import balance
Manufacturing base
Sustainability {this, is whay brought down the USSR}
Growth
GeoPolitics {allies, who your border}

the balance should depend on the times. on september 10th, I'd put the balance at 33%military-66%non
but today, if the US is seriousley gonna go after Iraq, I'd say its more like 45-55. this is why nations with strong militaries rise in power at war time. so perhaps for now I can accept India where it is... but it still has a weak economey

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Israel:
GDP: purchasing power parity - $110.2 billion (2000 est.)
From the CIA fact book.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

Lets make Israel in the size of USA, and multiply it by 36.6
We get 4.04 Trillion.
Not Bad

Like we don't have enough trouble yet... let's have 36.6 times more politicians! That would help us!

Anyway about that list:
Syria isn't a local power. It makes a lot of news because it supports terrorists all over the place but it's not much of a power, espcially not the kind of power the UN should have. In the middle east there's a military power (Israel) and a diplomatic power (Egypt). Same thing in the Persian gulf - Iran is a military power (Now that Saddam has a large but useless army with akmost no airforce) and Saudi is a diplomatic-economic power.

 

[IceBlaZe]

I bet israel would defeat india, but it will be devestating for both countries.
First of all, we sell our weapons to india, india uses Israeli developed weapons

Second of all, currently, israel is the only pro-western country in the world with anti-ballistic missile defence system, this system has a 9/10 chance to stop ballistic missiles such as scud c or that korean thing, nukes or not nukes.
Nukes is not an instrument to measure one countries power these days, its just an Intimidating weapon, or a last resort weapon. You dont see the USA using nukes on afghanistan, and you dont see india or pakistan bashing nukes on each other. When you reach the nuke, its can cause a lot of devestation to the entire world, so countries mainly use it for intimidation, ie. if you have nukes, no one would want to go to a total war with you because if a country with nukes is about to lose or to be conquered there is a high chance it will use it.
The only chance I see to see a nuke in the near future is to be used by some crazy muslim terrorist who doesnt care if the entire world blows out as long as israel gets doomed and the united states fall.

So when it comes to actual battle, within too distant countries like india and israel, it comes to technology, deployment, tactics, startegy and experience.

Israel has a newer army, better deployed defence system and airforce than NATO, and the only anti-ballistic missile defence system in the world. We also have the strongest tank and the only anti-tank advanced laser-weapon something ( I dont know much about it cos its secret..) in the world, its supposed to be able to destroy 500 tanks in one day or something.
Israel has proven numerous times that it doesnt matter how small its army is, it can still win (1948, 1967, 1973), I dont think it will be much different with india.

Everyone should thank us anyway, we destroyed Iraqs nuclear base

Ciao,
-Eyal

 

[knowltok2]

A war between India and Israel? You don't even see that in the wild historical speculations threads. I'm not going to question either nation's prowess in battle, but how in the hell are you going to get at each other? Is Israel going to march through Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan to get there? Wound India use its navy to sail through the Suez Canal and try an amphibious landing?

I know it is all theoretical and all, but seriously...

 

[Flatlander Fox]

Strongest Tank?

Nope....


That title belongs to either the Leopard tank (German) or the M1A2.

500 tanks in one day? Can you say TOW missile? I think in Desert Storm the M1A1s there were wiping out that many in the ground war (Those who weren't surrendering anyway)

Three things in the world can destroy an M1A2:

A-10 Warthog
Leopard
Another M1A2

Merkava might have a chance.

Maybe...

When you say NATO, you might be thinking Czechoslovakia, or maybe Poland, but not Germany, or England, or even France. NATO has some pretty modern stuff.

By the way, the Israeli designed weapons have made their way into the U.S. Army too.

The system I have seen is junk. Maybe this is the only one that holds that title, but this particular weapons system is VERY poorly engineered. Not a blanket statement of course, but just one thing that we overpaid for!

Maybe it's a conspiracy!


As for a new order in the power of the U.N., with all of the suggestions mentioned, I fail to see one thing.

ANY OF THESE COUNTRIES TAKING AN ACTIVE ROLE IN PEACEMAKING!!!!

Sure, these other countries will step in and lend a hand AFTER all of the dirty work has been done, but very few countries actually take the lead...

So (as I have stated before), if you are jealous because your country doesn't do anything about the state of the world, and the U.S. does, then do something about it. Get active, promote peace, do something, but don't whine about how the U.S. runs everything in the world while your country sits on its hands.