Why do some Christians support the "war on terror"?

[El_Machinae]

If all Christians followed that path they would soon be extinct. If someone is trying to kill you, turning the other cheek is suicide.

That's why true Christianity never becomes mainstream. Only mutations that allow it to survive or thrive work out. The cult who believes in fighting the secret police will outlast the version that allows themselves to be thrown to the lions.

It's natural selection, baby, and it works with philosophies too.

 

[Smidlee]

Turn the other cheek applies to a personal insult. When someone slap you in the face the first response in to slap them back but Jesus want his disciples to take the insult and not to strike back. This has nothing to do with the love for one's country. Many christians would be willing fight for America and see it as an honor to do so. We thank God for our nation even with it's flaws.

 

[El_Machinae]

Wow. I really read that bit in a different context than you do.

There's really nothing there to suggest that he really means "But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil."

 

[MobBoss]

Do you really think it does good to shoot a man, a flesh and blood human being without knowing his soul, knowing what he is capable of?

In war, trying to know the enemys soul while is is actively trying to kill you is a losing game. As Patton put it, "no dumb sob ever won a war by dying for his country"....you win by making the other poor dumb sob die for his.

Does war ever begat anything but more war?

As Clausewitz put it, war is just the conintuation of policy (diplomacy) by other means. If your statement was true, we would be in a state of constant warfare, which is not true. Often it takes war and violence to end war...as seen in WWII.

Would the Germans have followed a man like Hitler had they not been so humiliated after WW I?

Sure they would. Remember, it was their willingness to go to battle that also started WW I in the first place.

What if Hitler had stood up and delievered his messege of hate (about the "evildoer" Jews) and everyone had laughed, laughed and refused to participate, perhaps recommended counseling for old Adolf?

Lets try to stick to reality.

I for one refuse to particpate in any war. I may not be commited 100% to non-violence. I would kill an animal to feed to my cats if it came to it. I would physically stop a man who tried to hurt me or my chosen woman (or my future children). Certainly.

/shrug. It really makes me feel better that you are there to protect your cats and your woman if the enemy gets by me and my buddies. Good job!

And I don't think your Man would either. Seriously, Christ with a gun in his hand? Could you really visualize that Mobby? Without laughing? Or crying? Or something?

Remember, Christ is the son of God, who indeed does believe in warfare. When Christ indeed returns it will be at the head of an army...and not the salvation army. The Lion of the tribe of Judah. He probably wont need to carry a gun, but I do envision him returning with a nice big flaming/glowing sword of some type to wage war on hell.

Oh and btw, the nick is MobBoss....not Mobby. Thanks.

 

[Norlamand]

It's natural selection, baby, and it works with philosophies too.

I'm all for natural selection. I just wish we would stop pulling out punches and help the terrorists and their supporters find the glory in extinction that they so crave.

 

[Narz]

In war, trying to know the enemys soul while is is actively trying to kill you is a losing game. As Patton put it, "no dumb sob ever won a war by dying for his country"....you win by making the other poor dumb sob die for his.

The poor sob who dies for his generally has family and friends who want revenge.

As Clausewitz put it, war is just the conintuation of policy (diplomacy) by other means. If your statement was true, we would be in a state of constant warfare, which is not true. Often it takes war and violence to end war...as seen in WWII.

We (the US) has been in wars almost as often as out of them. Not all nations are so involved.

Sure they would. Remember, it was their willingness to go to battle that also started WW I in the first place.

It was the willingness of all of Europe. Which brings me back to my point - if no one was willing to fight and kill there would be no more wars.

/shrug. It really makes me feel better that you are there to protect your cats and your woman if the enemy gets by me and my buddies. Good job!

I don't support the cause of you and your buddies. If you want to go kill people you can expect to potentially get killed. I can see why you would not like people with my attitude. If everyone felt responsibile to live and let live there would be no need for hired killers.

Remember, Christ is the son of God, who indeed does believe in warfare. When Christ indeed returns it will be at the head of an army...and not the salvation army. The Lion of the tribe of Judah. He probably wont need to carry a gun, but I do envision him returning with a nice big flaming/glowing sword of some type to wage war on hell.

Lets try to stick to reality.

Oh and btw, the nick is MobBoss....not Mobby. Thanks.

My apologies.

 

[BasketCase]

Some Republicans (such as myself) are atheists. Some liberals are religious. Some gays are conservative. Some liberals oppose gun control.

Why should a Christian toe the line on every single issue that's considered Christian??

So, in answer to the OP: I fail to see how there's a problem. A lot of religions refer to their God as a provider; yet very few people simply sit down at the dinner table and wait for food to magically appear before them. They cook it themselves. We feed ourselves, we clothe ourselves, and so it's not such a stretch that sometimes we're gonna have to do our own fighting.

 

[Narz]

So, in answer to the OP: I fail to see how there's a problem. A lot of religions refer to their God as a provider; yet very few people simply sit down at the dinner table and wait for food to magically appear before them. They cook it themselves. We feed ourselves, we clothe ourselves, and so it's not such a stretch that sometimes we're gonna have to do our own fighting.

I just think it is strange considering Jesus brought a messege of peace (turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor, meek shall inherit the Earth, etc.) that the non-religious are more opposed to the war than those who claim to follow him.

 

[warpus]

I just think it is strange considering Jesus brought a messege of peace (turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor, meek shall inherit the Earth, etc.) that the non-religious are more opposed to the war than those who claim to follow him.

There is a lot of war in the Bible. If anything, that sends the message that war is a fact of human existence.

If there was no war in the Bible perhaps more Christians would be morally opposed to war in principle.

 

[Narz]

There is a lot of war in the Bible. If anything, that sends the message that war is a fact of human existence.

Pretty much all in the old testament though right? Didn't Jesus come so we could be cleansed of sin and cut out all that killing each other crap?

 

[Smidlee]

Pretty much all in the old testament though right?

This makes a lot of sense given the fact the old testament is dealing mostly to the nation Isreal. The church isn't a nation but suppose to go out unto all the nations.

Didn't Jesus come so we could be cleansed of sin and cut out all that killing each other crap?

Jesus dealt with people one on one as well as his disciples not nation vs nation. It's important to rightly divide the Word of God.

 

[MobBoss]

The poor sob who dies for his generally has family and friends who want revenge.

Time heals all wounds. This is war, not the Hatfields and McCoys. I see France and Germany working side by side today despite their long and bloody history of war with each other. So I think your claim about unending revenge at tad off.

We (the US) has been in wars almost as often as out of them. Not all nations are so involved.

A lot of other nations dont effect the world to the extent we do. The USA hardly has a monopoly on it.

It was the willingness of all of Europe. Which brings me back to my point - if no one was willing to fight and kill there would be no more wars.

Very Ghandi-esque. However, if you downsize your army in the face of a determined enemy, all you are going to do is solicit an attack. This has been proven all throughout history. A couple of quotes here for you:

"The conqueror is always a lover of peace; he would prefer to take over our country unopposed." - Karl von Clausewitz

"If you entrench yourself behind strong fortifications, you compel the enemy seek a solution elsewhere." - Karl von Clausewitz

A strong military helps promote peace....not war.

I don't support the cause of you and your buddies. If you want to go kill people you can expect to potentially get killed. I can see why you would not like people with my attitude. If everyone felt responsibile to live and let live there would be no need for hired killers.

First of all, we just didnt drive over there on our own accord. We were ordered there thankyouverymuch. And I find your equating soldiers as "hired killers" fairly offensive.

 

[Narz]

Time heals all wounds. This is war, not the Hatfields and McCoys. I see France and Germany working side by side today despite their long and bloody history of war with each other. So I think your claim about unending revenge at tad off.

Maybe a tad off but time certainly hasn't seemed to heal the wounds between Muslims, Jews and Christians.

A lot of other nations dont effect the world to the extent we do. The USA hardly has a monopoly on it.

So, the price we have to pay for having major world impact is fighting constantly? Japan has a pretty powerful world impact and they haven't been in a war since the forties.

Very Ghandi-esque. However, if you downsize your army in the face of a determined enemy, all you are going to do is solicit an attack.

How many people have invaded Japan recently? How about Switzerland?

This has been proven all throughout history. A couple of quotes here for you:

"The conqueror is always a lover of peace; he would prefer to take over our country unopposed." - Karl von Clausewitz

"If you entrench yourself behind strong fortifications, you compel the enemy seek a solution elsewhere." - Karl von Clausewitz

A strong military helps promote peace....not war.

Quotes are nice, however I find the first quote ridiculous (the conquerer certainly enjoys the challenge of war) and the second one only states that being prepared for attack is important. I agree. However it says nothing about sticking your nose in other nation's business all over the earth making enemies the world over.

First of all, we just didnt drive over there on our own accord. We were ordered there thankyouverymuch. And I find your equating soldiers as "hired killers" fairly offensive.

Ordered there to do what? Oh yes, to kill. Blaming fate or higher ups for your actions only shows how perverted your world view is. Would you kill me (or any other anti-war member here) if your superiors deemed me a threat to the war effort? Where do you draw the line? Oh yes, I forgot, you don't draw it, you leave the moral decisions to those in power. Sorry, for a moment I thought you believed in a higher authority.

 

[Narz]

Jesus dealt with people one on one as well as his disciples not nation vs nation. It's important to rightly divide the Word of God.

Nations are made up of individuals, I don't see what you are saying here.

 

[MobBoss]

So, the price we have to pay for having major world impact is fighting constantly? Japan has a pretty powerful world impact and they haven't been in a war since the forties.

Bad example for you in Japan. Sure, its been in a war...it sent troops to Iraq did it not? Anyway, it was rebuilding for decades after WW II and is now re-emerging again as a world power...and just recently they are even discussing pre-emptive strikes on North Korean missile sites in a defensive measure.

How many people have invaded Japan recently? How about Switzerland?

No one invades Japan since it is protected by the USA. No one cares to invade Switzerland regardless....the whole country is mountainous and armed to the teeth. Switzerland is more of an example of having peace through a strong defensive position than any true international presence.

Quotes are nice, however I find the first quote ridiculous (the conquerer certainly enjoys the challenge of war)

You are quite wrong on that account. Every great military theorist (sun tzu, clausewitz, etc.) plainly says its much better to take an enemy intact and with as little conflict as possible.

and the second one only states that being prepared for attack is important.

Again incorrect. The second deals with making oneself (or ones country) an undesireable target of war. Does a thief go to rob a house with alarm systems and dogs or the house with an open window? Think about it.

However it says nothing about sticking your nose in other nation's business all over the earth making enemies the world over.

Obviously the concept of protecting a countries interests abroad is lost on you.

Ordered there to do what? Oh yes, to kill.

Sigh. Your myopia and narrow mindedness is stunning. Such statements lends me to believe you dont see much a difference in soldiers and policemen than in a serial killers actions.

Blaming fate or higher ups for your actions only shows how perverted your world view is.

You make extremely stupid remarks equating soldiers to mindless killers and accuse me of have a perverted view? Oh please. Soldiers do what they are ordered to. They are also taught not to obey unlawful orders. I dont blame fate or higher ups, but I do know how the flow goes...and its almost always downhill.

Would you kill me (or any other anti-war member here) if your superiors deemed me a threat to the war effort?

If you were trying to harm me, or my squad I would do it and not think twice. I may not have been in a war zone, but I have had weapons pointed right at my nose with intent to kill me (not training..but real world). I know full well how I will respond to a threat.

Where do you draw the line? Oh yes, I forgot, you don't draw it, you leave the moral decisions to those in power. Sorry, for a moment I thought you believed in a higher authority.

Where do I draw the line? I dont fire first. You pick up a weapon and try to hurt me, you crossed the line...not me. As I am so fond of telling younger soldiers....you mess with the bull...you get the horn.

As I have said..I am a christian...but I am far from perfect.

 

[Narz]

Well, you've made your position pretty clear. Personally I am not convinced that following Jesus and being a solidier are reconcilable but evidently many people are. I wonder if the Popes during the crusades used the "not perfect" excuse to justify their advocation of following the call of bloodlust and genocide also.

 

[MobBoss]

Well, you've made your position pretty clear. Personally I am not convinced that following Jesus and being a solidier are reconcilable but evidently many people are. I wonder if the Popes during the crusades used the "not perfect" excuse to justify their advocation of following the call of bloodlust and genocide also.

Couple of things. I am neither full of "bloodlust" nor a practioner of "genocide". Nor have a broken any of Jesus' commandments nor any of the ten commandments via my service as a soldier. Please note that I dont plan on being a soldier all my life. In fact, one of the deacons at my church is a retired Sergeant Major who was in Vietnam and is now a Firemans Chaplain.

My walk is precisely that....mine. Not yours. You are free to think what you want...but I am just as free to say your wrong in your assumption.

 

[Narz]

Agreed. Take care MobBoss. No hard feelings.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

Its not a mans profession that makes the difference, its his faith. Did Jesus not complement a Roman Centurion on his faith? Why yes he did.

Jesus recognized that people could be redeemed from even the most evil professions, such as the tax collectors who illegally blackmailed and extorted the people of the countryside. Unlike the Pharisees who wanted nothing to do with these sinners, Jesus sat down and ate breakfast with them!

We can argue about the moral value of soldiering as a career choice, but Jesus's words and actions show that he felt anybody could be redeemed. His praise of the centurion is relevant to his (at the time) revolutionary idea that people had moral worth independant of their profession or status. Slaves, soldiers, landowners, merchants, all were to be equal in his church.

To me it seems that people like you are going in the exact OPPOSITE direction by saying things like "Jesus had a warrior's heart" or that God pays special attention to and has special blessings for soldiers.

Its perfectly possible to be a true christian in todays society. There are tons of them out there. I am a true christian. I would say that there are no "perfect" christians. True? Yes. Perfect? No.

Ambrose Bierce defined a Christian as "one who follows the teachings of Christ insofar as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin."

 

[El_Machinae]

Such statements lends me to believe you dont see much a difference in soldiers and policemen than in a serial killers actions.

I certainly think of a soldier's task and a police officer's task as vastly different. These two careers are dissimilar enough that they should not be lumped together when a soldier is accused of being a hired killer. Because a soldier is very much a hired killer; and their job description includes attacking people that they are told are dangerous, even if the soldiers don't have enough proof themselves.