Why do you all hate drugs / drug dealers?

Besides, it is not the government's role to save people's brain cells. Name one place in the Constitution where this role is mentioned.


"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. "

I think this might cover it. That said, it wouldn't bother me if it was legalized.

I notice that ApocalypseKurts is from Boston. I lived in Boston for awhile, and while it isn't a "city full of junkies" it ain't Kansas either.
 
Originally posted by Marzipan



"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. "

I think this might cover it. That said, it wouldn't bother me if it was legalized.

True. Basically the opinion of the public on this matter boils down to whether you think the government should stay completely out of our private lives (libertarian) or the government needs to interfere in our lives (authoritarian). Obviously most of the people are somewhere in the middle. I think the American public today is more hesitant to decriminalize pot because of the huge anti-drug campaign our government has put forth.

As far as "promote the general welfare," that can be interpreted in many different ways. Also, we must keep in mind that the Constitution was written 200 years ago, and sometimes we must stray from some of it's contents. Still, I suppose "promote the general welfare" would be most reasonably interpreted to illegalize hard drugs but not necessariyl marijuana; studies on the drug have shown no long term negative effects on the brain.


Originally posted by Marzipan
I notice that ApocalypseKurts is from Boston. I lived in Boston for awhile, and while it isn't a "city full of junkies" it ain't Kansas either.

Hmmm... I'm not sure what you're saying here, but for the record I grew up in Bedford, MA, which is a small quiet suburb of Boston. I recently moved to Boston for college. If you mean that Boston is run down and it is primarily due to drugs, wouldn't that deter me from supporting legalization? Well Boston is just like any other city, it has it's good parts and it's not so good parts, but overall I like it and have not seen or experienced any violent crime.
 
Originally posted by ApocalypseKurtz

Curt Sibling - you really think the police have ever, or will ever scan the off-topic board at civfanatics.com looking for criminals??? Wow, you are really paranoid man. I think they have better things to be doing. And anyway, even if the police found out both your address and your name from the internet, they would need a search warrant to enter your house. I don't think "He posted a message on an internet forum advocating drug legalization" constitutes probable cause for a search warrant.

Wow, you are a really gullible man.

I didn't think you guys would be uptight about the HUMOUR
comment I made! Do you think I am serious about that?

It must be the drugs. Get real!

Anyway, ApocalypseKurtz, I get the impression that you think
most anti-drugs people are right-wingers with no knowledge of the drug scene or culture.

And the old chestnut of pot leading to smack.

This is a load of crap.
Most smack-heads I have met try it because they are in a group
or gang that already experiemnts in herion or some other hard drug.

You guys mostly seem to live in the USA,
You haven't seen the state of the housing schemes in the UK,
communities destroyed through heroin. I have seen friends,
family and whole areas filled with junkies since 1998. This is as
much to do with no jobs and degenerated neighbourhoods,
as it has to do with crime and drugs.

But none of the junkies I have met ever got onto smack via pot,
pot is just something they use when they have nothing else to
to get them high, but herion is favoured above all.

So gentlemen, please sober up before trying to get all high
and mighty with me about drugs.

I have seen the bleak side of drugs, I have lived in the wreckage
of drugs, don't presume that I have no clue.

You guys don't know anything about it.
 
Sorry as to say but this thread is really stupid.How could people be given freedom to eat drugs?How could anybody argue that whatever rubbish private life have freedom to eat drugs?Man ......drugs people normally are scum of the societies as those like prisioners.Drugs by all means should be banned .Any government that fails to ban it are scum govt
 
Originally posted by CurtSibling


Wow, you are a really gullible man.

I didn't think you guys would be uptight about the HUMOUR
comment I made! Do you think I am serious about that?

It must be the drugs. Get real!

Anyway, ApocalypseKurtz, I get the impression that you think
most anti-drugs people are right-wingers with no knowledge of the drug scene or culture.

And the old chestnut of pot leading to smack.

This is a load of crap.
Most smack-heads I have met try it because they are in a group
or gang that already experiemnts in herion or some other hard drug.

You guys mostly seem to live in the USA,
You haven't seen the state of the housing schemes in the UK,
communities destroyed through heroin. I have seen friends,
family and whole areas filled with junkies since 1998. This is as
much to do with no jobs and degenerated neighbourhoods,
as it has to do with crime and drugs.

But none of the junkies I have met ever got onto smack via pot,
pot is just something they use when they have nothing else to
to get them high, but herion is favoured above all.

So gentlemen, please sober up before trying to get all high
and mighty with me about drugs.

I have seen the bleak side of drugs, I have lived in the wreckage
of drugs, don't presume that I have no clue.

You guys don't know anything about it.

Well I must have missed the joke before.

I am getting really sick of saying it but once again, LEGALIZATION OF MARIJUANA WILL NOT INCREASE HARD DRUG USE. I even believe that legalization of hard drugs will not lead to increased drug use. The junkies you mention are ADDICTED to a drug. They will get it no matter how illegal it is, and prison sentences certainly will not cure them.

I don't think rightwingers are ignorant to drug culture but rather, they are proposing the wrong solutions. They have a short, simple, and WRONG solution to a complex problem. Their solution is prohibition and prison sentences. It has not worked. We need to try treatment in place of prison for hard drug users.

If you're argument is based upon how bad things have gotten in drug-infested areas, you cannot blame that on legalization of these drugs because they are ILLEGAL. As I said before, the public buys into a "get tough on crime" or "get tough on drugs" political stance but it is all B.S.

I made no personal attacks on you; I am certainly not claiming you don't know about the negative effects of drugs. I have no idea who you are and what you know about drugs. All I am saying is prohibition is not the answer.
 
Originally posted by Fayadi
Sorry as to say but this thread is really stupid.How could people be given freedom to eat drugs?How could anybody argue that whatever rubbish private life have freedom to eat drugs?Man ......drugs people normally are scum of the societies as those like prisioners.Drugs by all means should be banned .Any government that fails to ban it are scum govt

Since you are giving no reasons to support your claim, I will ignore your post.
 
In all my experience with the courts, I have not yet encounted a single felon who was not an illegal drug user (although I know ther has been seroius crime somewhere and some when with out it). Every murderer, every rapist, every buglar, every anything felon, was, and almost all of the first so, an illegal drug user. Worst of all of them were the former paint sniffers. That stuff just kill the prefrontal lobe, turning them into pure sociopaths.
The dealers I ecountered are for the most part the sociopathic slime of the earth. And contrary to a lie posted somewhere above many of do activily recruit children as customers. (And no I have not been a prosecutor, my crimminal law activity {a small posrtion of my practice} was all defense.)
 
My thoughts:
1. Legalize MJ
2. Tax the hell out of it. (You can still make the cost a lot cheaper than street price)
3. Use the money for education about the effects of all drugs
4. Use the money to fight hard drugs
5. Make the penalties for irresponsible drug use extremely severe. (High driving, etc.)

This way we go after what is really causing the problems, hard drugs. We are not distracted by MJ, but instead are provided with revenue from it. I think the gateway effect will be lessoned, if it exists because pot smokers will no longer be in the same class as other drug users. Going to a bar and getting a drink does not put me at risk for gatewaying to pot, heroin, or anything else in most cases, because it isn't there. Pot can be the same way. If you don't have to enter a criminal subculture to get pot you don't have to be associated with those that do other drugs.

If I wanted to smoke pot, I'd have to reaquaint myself with people who smoke pot, occasionally drop acid, and have people over who do even more. On the otherhand, If it were legal, I could go to the store and buy it without any need to associate with anyone I wouldn't normally.

Have at me, but please don't anyone tell me I don't know anything about drugs. We all have our personal experiences and they are as varied as the rest of our experiences.
 
Originally posted by Fayadi
Sorry as to say but this thread is really stupid.How could people be given freedom to eat drugs?How could anybody argue that whatever rubbish private life have freedom to eat drugs?Man ......drugs people normally are scum of the societies as those like prisioners.Drugs by all means should be banned .Any government that fails to ban it are scum govt

I'm glad to see we've got some common sense to my friends out in the Asia-Pacific...
 
Those guys who claim that US goverment should save it's citizens health :
Please check what cigarettes do. And still, your goverment doesn't even
have anti-tobacco programs (or does it? I'm sorry if it has)
 
And now, an interlude from a nasty right wing authoritarian.

The debates about the various meanings of the US Constitution have little relevance for countries not subject to it, such as my own. We have no such innate distaste and distrust for government intervention here, for the record.

I do not believe that legalizing everything, or even certain substances, would alter the levels of crime in communities. There would always be something new introduced, some new way of organized crime making profits. Organized crime did not cease with the repeal of prohibition, it just changed. To think that it would not do so again is to only see half the problem.

The so called ideological divide comes down to whether you think we should address the causes or the effects. I believe in addressing both: looking at and dealing with effectively the reasons for drug abuse and addiction, and punishing with utmost severity those involved with any aspect of drugs.

"Their solution is prohibition and prison sentences."
Who said anything about ineffective and soft jail time? ;)
Simply execute those involved in the manufacture and distribution of drugs:)
Drugs and crime are linked, and I believe the solution is not: 'OK, um... we can't do anymore. Legalize whatever and let people have the freedom to ruin their own lives.'

I do not believe in allowing people to have that freedom.
Why?
Because it will always come down to the youth, who abuse substances legal and illegal. They do not have the experience or common sense to behave responsibly in regards to these affairs, and education discouraging drug taking only serves to raise the level of taboo.
They will be among those abusing this freedom, and the ripple effects will impact upon their family, friends and acquaintances.

We can have it both ways, addressing supply and demand through concerted action and harsh penalties. The cost to society of drug abuse is far too high, and simply legalizing and regulating it does not change the horror of drug addiction. We have a responsibility to fight constantly for what is good and right for society and the community.
 
Originally posted by Juize
Those guys who claim that US goverment should save it's citizens health :
Please check what cigarettes do. And still, your goverment doesn't even
have anti-tobacco programs (or does it? I'm sorry if it has)

Hah! Anti-tobacco programs? Are you kidding?

We've got more anti-tobacco problems then people. It's ridiculous what they do now -- they even accuse smokers of being "idiots" (according to posters in the Ala Moana Shopping Center in Honolulu, Hawaii)
 
Hah! Anti-tobacco programs? Are you kidding?

We've got more anti-tobacco problems then people.

And it's not just America. Canada ( or at least B.C.) is getting pretty brutal on smokers. I myself am really struggling to quit, so everyday I'm having less of a problem with them too. Why would we want to legalize another vice?

Why do I half expect another cut and quote insulting my innocent little post :rolleyes: .
 
Hehe funny story, this black kid he's 15 years old and is a 10th grader at my high school.
Well he's a pothead out the frame. He always has a dime bag on him at school.
Well anyways to get some money for more weed and he had the munchies after smoking some.
He made 3 orders that night to 3 seperate pizza places and got them delivered to different addresses and robbed the pizza guys!
He got $50 and 4 Large pizzas! lol
They caught him today, what a ****ing moron.
 
"Anyway...Yes, you are a good citizen, aren't you?
You work, pay taxes, etc, and you also have the self-righteous manner that most pot-heads I have met seem to have."

Ah, Curt, Curt, Curt.... You don't seem to understand. It isn't self-righteousness at all--I don't think I'm any better than the next man. Call it, defensiveness--if you will. I.e. because I choose a certain peaceful activity, an alternative vice to alcohol, whatever--I am threatened with the possibility of legal consequences. If you were in my shoes, you'd understand. I feel I must fight for what should be an unquestionable individual right--what I will put into my body. And I see no reason why I should have to fight or argue ANYTHING about it. It is MY place and MINE alone to decide what to put into my body. Just as it is YOUR right to decide what you will put into yours. WHY do others insist on making it so much of an issue that they support police using force against people like me? Why MUST it be an issue at all? So I may sound a little self-righteous (I honestly don't intend to be, I'm just defending against the notion that I should be labeled and treated as a criminal), so what? Is THAT a reason why pot should be against the law?

"You are also helping to fuel one of the industries that ends
people's lives on a daily basis, but that is your democratic choice."

I don't know if you knew this, but it is absolutely impossible to overdose on marijuana. Therefore it kills no one. If you drink (and maybe you do, maybe you don't), THAT industry can be considered responsible for deaths every day, under a certain form of reasoning. However *I* consider any deaths to be the fault and responsibility of individual drinkers, who decided to slowly or quickly kill themselves by overdoing it. The industry certainly isn't responsible for individual decisions.

But unlike alcohol or cocaine or heroin, marijuana use cannot result in overdose....

"But I guess us straight-edgers don't know nothing, eh?"

Didn't say you don't know nothing, but judging from the above comment I just answered, you seem to have some misconceptions. Which doesn't make you stupid--NO one can know ALL. Just don't be upset if someone points those out to you. We all can learn a thing or two from each other, can't we?
 
"Legalize whatever and let people have the freedom to ruin their own lives.'

"I do not believe in allowing people to have that freedom.
"Why?
"Because it will always come down to the youth, who abuse substances legal and illegal. They do not have the experience or common sense to behave responsibly in regards to these affairs, and education discouraging drug taking only serves to raise the level of taboo."

They do it now. Trouble is, what they get now could be cocaine, or could contain a large amount of laundry detergent or something. The dealers of the BLACK MARKET don't have the same types of scruples as a store owner, who would first of all enforce any legal age we place on substances (just like "carding"--checking IDs, including watching very closely for fakes--for liquor--hell even I in my 30s have gotten "carded" on the VERY rare occasions I buy any alcohol), and second of all only carry a branded, standardized product.

I see a problem, and I look for PRACTICAL solutions. I know that the problem will exist, and will continue to exist, laws or not. I see the "War on Drugs" as just misplaced faith that the government can somehow MAKE people not destroy themselves, when it really cannot. Instead I see more crime on the streets as drug prices skyrocket and dealers get more greedy for these artificially high profits.

And what will organized crime get into when drugs, adult prostitution, and gambling are all made legal? Extortion? Child porn? All those cops now chasing drug users--not to mention the street pushing scum who will no longer exist--will be freed up to tackle these TRUE crimes, and they can be as draconian as they want with them as far as I'm concerned.

Bottom line--JUST AS you say organized crime will seek out other avenues of criminal business (but you'd have to admit their options would be VERY limited), people bent on destroying themselves will ALWAYS find an avenue to do that, too. It is a sad fact of life, but some people are just damned determined to destroy themselves--and they will. And there have been people like that around for thousands of years. Just try not to be one of those people, is all you can do. Maybe showing your love for one of these whom you care about MAY make a difference--it sometimes does--but don't count on a guarantee. In the end, they must and WILL decide whether or not to continue with their own destruction.

"They will be among those abusing this freedom, and the ripple effects will impact upon their family, friends and acquaintances."

They already do--the law changes nothing, and even tougher laws won't either.

"We can have it both ways, addressing supply and demand through concerted action and harsh penalties. The cost to society of drug abuse is far too high,"

Like I said, I work, pay my taxes, and smoke some pot now and then. So do quite a few productive, working people. If for some reason I can't afford it at some time or other, more bills due or whatever, I simply go without it. If I did end up having a family, I certainly wouldn't do ANYTHING to jeopardize their security and well-being. I would be as loving a parent as mine were to me--and I was certainly blessed in that area, growing up. I am, and would continue to be, responsible.

I don't know if this shatters your image of what a typical casual pot-smoker is supposed to be like, but that is what I am. I DON'T cost society--I CONTRIBUTE to it every day through my work, every year through my taxes, and try to as often as I can through good deeds (I ain't a saint by any means, but I do good now and then ;) ). Pot is NOT so important to me that it will ever get in the way of these things--I haven't let it do that for the last decade and a half, and so I think the question of addiction, uncontrolled actions and so on, is moot for me. But I DO enjoy it, and prefer it over the stupidity and uncoordination of a drunken state, something I USED to engage in quite regularly, at far more detriment to myself, and emotional hurt to those around me.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that you can't lump every user into one pile, one box, one description, one stereotype. And I just don't fit into the one you seem to be presenting here. And neither do more people than you might think, who also use pot. You may not be aware of people like us around you, because we generally tend to keep very quiet and discrete about our vice, for obvious reasons--we want to KEEP working and contributing our share to society, rather than waste time in jail. I am only speaking out here, well, partly because of the internet's anonymity, but mainly because I think awareness of people like me, as a general group, should be made known--if anything, to counter others' misconceptions, government propaganda efforts, or what have you.

And if you met me, spent time with me and knew me--well, you may or may not decide you LIKE me for whatever reason, but I am confident you would NOT think that I belong in jail. Simple as that.

"and simply legalizing and regulating it does not change the horror of drug addiction. We have a responsibility to fight constantly for what is good and right for society and the community."

As I have demonstrated, I am not an addict. I don't let my casual pot use take precedence over my responsibilities to be productive, trustworthy, and moral in society. If I am addicted to ANYTHING, it's my principles. I never back down from them. And one of those principles is liberty WITH responsibility--and they go hand in hand.

People can drink responsibly if they want to. Similarly, people can use marijuana responsibly if they want to. Some people don't, whether it be alcohol or pot, and of course they are more visible and talked about BECAUSE they don't, but many more people DO.
 
Allan, I understand and appreciate your well argued point of view. I still believe that some governmental intervention can do some goo for some people.
I understand what you are saying when you describe yourself as a responsible pot user, and I was one of those a few years back, I admit freely. It did me no long term harm, but there are a lot of people out there who do not have the same capacity to make the responsible choices that others have made. Not everyone has admirable self discipline and self control.

I care deeply for those who think it the only option to **** up their lives, and I work for them as much as possible. There is a such thing as a lost cause, but I'll be darned if I give up before anyone else does.

The sad thing is some of my dearest childhood friends have turned into that which I most hate - drug dealers. When I call for heavy reaction, it is not with a light heart.

I have known addiction in my own small way, and know how it consumes and destroys your life. Thankfully, I beat it, and continue to keep beating it, but I know how desparate and needing it can be; to fill the void in your life with something. I don't want no one else to suffer what I did if I can help it, and that is one of the big reasons I don't want to abandon drug addicts to their fate.

I will try to address this matter in greater depth tommorrow, rather than at the moment, late at night.
 
"We've got more anti-tobacco problems then people. It's ridiculous what they do now -- they even accuse smokers of being "idiots" (according to posters in the Ala Moana Shopping Center in Honolulu, Hawaii)"

Rmsharpe, it is rather ironic that you think it is ridiculous for users of ONE drug, nicotine--that happens to be deadly, and responsible for more preventable deaths each year than probably ANYTHING else--to be labeled "idiots", but you don't seem to have a problem with similar attacks on users of ANOTHER drug, marijuana, that may be responsible for a TINY fraction of lung cancer deaths, and nothing else....

I dunno, what do you think? ;)
 
Thanks, Simon, for the good words.

You seem to have a big heart--and that's good. Thing is, I don't think people like you will lose their big hearts if drugs became legal. You'd still be there helping people. Do you volunteer or work with a treatment center of some sort? (It sounded like you might.) If so, those places would still exist. Many addicts DO decide one day, on their own (i.e. without the consequences of legal troubles prodding them unwillingly), to try to straighten out their lives--and they go to these places voluntarily. A tax on the legalized substances could even enable these services to be free for all who would come.

Actually, I would say efforts of people like you, be they professional treatment counselors or simply good, loving friends, do FAR more good for people, and are FAR more effective at helping people stop their addictive habits, than an impersonal government ever could be.

I wonder, though, have you ever come into a situation where you've done ALL you could, been lied to, stolen from, what have you, from an addicted friend, where you came to the point that you couldn't do anything else and had to disengage from the relationship? Let's just say I have, with an old friend of mine, and it tore me up. My heart didn't harden in that case either--it broke. I don't even know where the guy is now, or if he's still alive. But I was becoming so co-dependent (I think that's the word) with my friend that it wasn't doing either of us any good. His will to destroy himself was just too strong, I guess. But I tried all I could to show him that his life was valuable....
 
I'm in favour of the prohibition of cars. Why you ask? Well some people just cant seem to drive responcibly. These "Speed Abusers" kill thousands of people a year (yes that includes the poor innocent children) and make our inner-cities dangerous. Children are afraid to play in the street! You see the "Speed Abuser" is always looking for a new high, and experiments with various other, more dangerous, vehicles, such as ski-doos and airplanes.

Just a thought.
 
Back
Top Bottom