GrandAdmiral said:
1st of all you are confusing communism with socialism which is very suprising coming from a European. Thats usually what Americans do. Even I tend to believe that in practice communism is just socialism achieved through revolution.
Actually its the perverted form of communism that utilizes capitalism. True communism is not simply just "a capitalist system where the difference between classes are residual or non existant." Thats just what people with socialist tendencies have tried to change the definition to instead of admitting that communism would never work. And just for the record, Portugal, Switzerland, Norway etc are not communist.
1) True Marxist communism by definition calls for revolutionary overthrow of the capitalist system.
2) True communism requires Collective ownership of property.
3) True communism requires the reorganization of labor to benefit the greater good.
4) True communism puts too much power into the hands of the government and therefore fewer people.
Communism and socialism by definition are more centralized systems.
Thats not and argument and the reference to the Stalinistic model is not what was being discussed.
The point is you are making statements about communism that have no evidence to back them up with.
In science a hypothesis is basically the prediction a scientist has before he conducts an experiment. Marx has made the hypothesis. Once the experiment is carried and if everything goes your way you then have a conclusion, evidence and credibility. Marx has none of this. The closest thing he has is either a perversion of his hypothesis or a failed experiment.
No way not a chance. They are not communist. Not even close. Canada is just America with more welfare and a smaller military. There is no collective ownership of land, and it is just as class based and has the same distribution of wealth as the US. Switzerland also has no collective land owenership or reoganization of labor. The are really just more liberal(liberal in the American sense). Communism is rightfully compared to Fascism and Islam disctartorships.
Communism Vs Socialism: Here I usually treat both as communism. Don't mix me with common americans please.
Thats just what people with socialist tendencies have tried to change the definition to instead of admitting that communism would never work. > I have not socialist tendencies, as far as I know. If they are finally getting it, good.
Issue here is: you need to forget all "communists" experiences and get away from that kind of centralized models. A CENTRALIZED model will never work, neither with opression. Societh needs a system, like the price system with a state taxing externalities (spelling?), where the needs and preferences od the people are reflected! Surelly not a "wise" man club who by "divine" powers planify it all...
And just for the record, Portugal, Switzerland, Norway etc are not communist. > lol. Good save us. As a member of PSD (center-right winged party), I am surelly very happy about it.
As for Sweeden, I must say they have the better ideology to what I see as the true interpretation of Marx. The third way, the center way, whatever you want to call it. To me, northern Europe "central" governements are the better example of the type of society who is more advanced politically and socially, in the way towards the true communism.
"1) True Marxist communism by definition calls for revolutionary overthrow of the capitalist system.
2) True communism requires Collective ownership of property.
3) True communism requires the reorganization of labor to benefit the greater good.
4) True communism puts too much power into the hands of the government and therefore fewer people."
>
To me that's "real communism" and it will never work.
1 - Revolutions are for morons (a bit harsh,but it is the truth). Fists and strikes will never achieve anything.
2 - Colective ownership is unpracticeable
3 is somewhat truth, but I bet what you mean by that is not what I intend
4 - That's the oposite of Marxian theory and you know it! Soviets crap that all up!!! As you may see in my previous post, comunism is trully the opposite of that!
"Communism and socialism by definition are more centralized systems." > Definition? Definition by whom?
Surelly not by me...
"The point is you are making statements about communism that have no evidence to back them up with." > That's truth about many things...
In fact, if there was evidences this conversation would be much smaller.
But yes, there are no evidences, so all we can do is discuss this.
"Marx has none of this. The closest thing he has is either a perversion of his hypothesis or a failed experiment." > Marx has an hypothesis that have trully never been experienced. I don't see the point here. Are you claiming that Soviet example is a experiment from Marx hypothesis?!?
"No way not a chance. They are not communist. Not even close. Canada is just America with more welfare and a smaller military. There is no collective ownership of land, and it is just as class based and has the same distribution of wealth as the US. Switzerland also has no collective land owenership or reoganization of labor. The are really just more liberal(liberal in the American sense). Communism is rightfully compared to Fascism and Islam disctartorships."
You don't get it do you. I am not advocating the soviet crap. I am talking about the "Capital", by Karl Marx. Have you read it? Do you know what that is about? How he says revolutions won't work and so?
I continue to say that Canada is closer to Comunism than most countries (including US) and you confirm it: a more welfare society, where culture is bigger and therefore military is not as important, where the words are much more usefull than the bullets. About Switzerland I include it because of the ammount of referendums they undertake every year and the much lesspowerfull government (I made some statements on that in my previous post).
PS: the biggest reason I hate today's left is because they ruined completelly Marx ideals. Like a famint person, they run for the burger and when they grab it they let it slip directly to the floor. This way they only delay it's coming. Funny thing is that the right winged people are much bigger contributs to the true Marxist society comming in the near future (what in the humanity history will take some centuries). At least I am one of the right winged people that knows what one is contributing for and where are we going to.
Hope to have made clear a few points.
If anyone want to answer this, please don't say again that I defend plain stupidities like a centralized state, common or colective properties, planned economies, etc.
1st, read my posts and try to understand the whole of what I defend, I beg you all.
Compliments from an economist,
Ricardo Jorge Fernandes Campelo de Magalhães / Richard Magellan
, but it is nevertheless quite senseless. And be careful with calling everything you don't like or don't understand fascistic. It degrades the intellectual level of discussion.
But please respect that we are all ignorant, it just depends on the subject...
Just read some of the stuff on page 1.
. I did learn a lot from it, in some senses, but it gets old now. I prefer to give my opinion as consicely as I can these days, and respond to reasonable questions, and little more. I don't have time teach every new poster about logic 
.
It is clear, to me, that Fox already had his mind made up on the issue. He wanted someone to tell him that Communism couldn't work, and then someone did. He hasn't been around for a few pages now...
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I don't have real intention to continue this thread, personnally, unless someone has something relevant and interesting to say. (Preferably original, too 
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