why france? what is wrong w/ the french?

[Ohkrana]

Al bundy said...
'..am I alone in saying I hate the French'

Also a joke I heard from a friend some time ago, sums it up.

I baught a French rifle cheap the other day,
Dropped once never been used!

Seems 'French Bashing' is always in vogue

And sooner or later this thread is going to get modded.
And some of us with it to maybe.

 

[dannyevilcat]

I actually like the French. They are one of my favorite countries in the world. I like them because I see them as a sort of mini-America in many ways.

 

[col]

I love France - its the French I dont like. Arrogant and patronising.

Not all of them, of course, just the ones that I've come into contact with!

 

[Grisu]

Since my country's culture has many french influences I can't possibly dislike the french. Furthermore, I don't see a reason to. Ok, the seem kind of arrogant on the first look, but that's just the exterior (btw, many americans appear kind of arrogant on the first look too ).

I always thought this french bashing is just kind of friendly banter, like we in switzerland like to make fun of the austrians. I hope I'm correct here...

 

[duke o' york]

Why is it that when Americans say that they are proud of their country and that it is the best in the world then they are described as patriotic, but when the French do it they are arrogant? This isn't anything against the Americans as it applies equally to all nations, but the Americans seem to be more proud of their country than most. And probably with more reason.
So you give us the model for our fledging democracy, and its most potent symbol (the Statue of Liberty for those unaware), so it must be OK for us to bash you back then France!
To play with stereotypes, we Brits like to drink tea, the yanks like to eat fast food and the French like to go on strike. This may have its basis in truth but I am an unashamed francophile and will remain so regardless of what happens. Hitler didn't make "Germany" bad, he made fascism bad. You may not like what a country does from time to time but this should not wipe out its cultural history and consign it to being utterly detestable. This is not a game of Civ with us playing as the MGE AI. Forgive and forget the offences, but admire the achievements of all nations.

 

[Trabpukcip]

Originally posted by CornMaster
I hate Quebec......as a province, not the people....or the French/France.

Well if I tell you what I think of the canadian who think that way about Québec I'll get banned from this place... You really p!$$ me off...


More on the topic, I love France, but can't stand Paris. The people there (in general, there are exceptions) beleive they are better then everyone else. As we say here: Y pètent plus haut que'l trou... ( translation: they fart higher then the hole)

 

[col]

Yes Parisians are a breed apart.

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by CornMaster
I hate Quebec......as a province, not the people....or the French/France.

or

What is it apart from the people that you hate about the province? The arcitechture? The rivers? Is it perhaps the general shape of the province? Or would it be the government that the people put into place to represent their interests?

A sad display.

]Originally posted by Ozz
Me too.

I would have expected better out of you.

 

[MrPresident]

I am English, I have to hate the French. I think it is genetical or something. Having said that it isn't proper hate. It is the same sort of hate that the Scots have for the English. Or the Welsh have for the English. Or the Irish have for the English. Or the French have for the English. Or... I could be here a while.

 

[MCdread]

Having thought about about this a few times and being from a more less neutral position, I've came to the conclusion that some of the franco-american antagonism is due to the fact that they are so much alike. The french are pissed off because they are inferior in terms of military power and political influence. Thus they envy the US in that particular. However, they are not inferior in everything. I ask the americans to forgive me, but in terms of culture (in a general sense) America is not comparable with France as a whole.
I'm with duke o' york about the patriotic pride vs. arrogant atitude. In that aspect americans are being arrogant by accusing the french for behaving in the exact same way they do. And about the so-called "french ingratitude" since WWII, think carefully and you'll see that when it mattered, when really important things were at stake France was always on America's side. As I said in another thread, real friends aren't those who comply immediatly with everything you say. France has a state at least five times older than the american one and has every right to run it in their way.

 

[Vrylakas]

It is not only the Americans who have "problems" with the French. In Hungary I had made many Western European friends and during one of those French farmer protest crises we were talking one night. The Belgians, Luxembourgers, Spanish, Dutch and Ruhr Germans all claimed their countries saw the French as "chauvanist". There was a general consensus that the French think very highly of their own culture and very lowly of anyone else's. As I've argued in some of the history threads related to how France betrayed its eastern allies in WW II, I think this trait has found very practical, if unfortunate, expression in their politics and for that I've developed a distinct distaste for the French concept of raison d'etat. Still, while I've never travelled in France itself yet I have travelled in Walloon Belgium, and met nothing but the friendliest people.

But that's just a cultural quirk. All countries have their insecurities and oddities. While the French may be obsessed with the belief that they are still the world's premier cultural and political power, Americans are very insecure about how the world sees them - whether everyone likes them. before one goes "trashing" France over one of its cultural oddities it should be remembered that French culture has been one of the major driving forces behind Western Civilization; developing some of the earliest universities, developing the Norman feudalistic concepts that allowed for political integration in Western Europe (French feudalism united while German feudalism divided), the major military advances of the late Middle Ages and Renaissance, art forms (especially architecture), and foremost (in my humble opinion) it was primarily (though not exclusively) the French who drove the very ideas of the Enlightenment that shattered the aristocratic order in Europe and laid the foundations for the modern democracy and prosperity the West enjoys. France did not just give us eclairs and impressionist painting; they are one of the principal components of Western Civilization.

I think for all these contributions and more the West can look beyond a few cultural oddities and just accept France for what it is.

As for the Americans in particular, I suspect one of the reasons the French and Americans don't get along too well (and that enmity is quite mutual) is that they are in many ways very similar. Both are what I call "imperialist" peoples who have a history of projecting national power far beyond their borders, both have had a major cultural impact on the world, both are reluctant to learn foreign languages, and both assume others should learn about them. Others fit this category as well - Russians, British, Chinese, Spanish - but the French and Americans both believe they've each made the quintessential contributions to Western Civilization. As many have already pointed out, they've both given one another critical aid at times of extreme danger and owe their very existance to that aid. Odd that they wouldn't get along better then...

O - I see that McDRead has beat me to this conclusion.

 

[gr8ful wes]

I like french fries, french toast, mayonaise, cordon bleu cookery, brie, roquefort, wine, baguettes,
Thanks Pierre!!!
The French are ok by me
Most of my interaction has been with Quebecois(sp) ad we got along just fine. But like any other stereotype, they are amusing to poke fun at.

 

[Ozz]

Originally posted by knowltok2
I would have expected better out of you.

Ya, I could have written something bland and nice
but when came down to brass tacks, I agreed with
Cornmaster, both in his opinion and his decision to
be honest about it.

If Quebec wants to be liked and respected, let
Quebecers act respectable. You want to know
what goes on look here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21251

Been hearing this nonsense coming out of
Quebec for 20 years.

 

[Heffalump]

If they confined their boasts of superiority to wine and cheese then I think we'd all get along much better.

ok, maybe those lovely Gallic women are entitled to boast about some other things as well. It always seemed to me that there was truly something different about the mindset of French women.

 

[allan2]

I have some French (French Canadian) in my ancestry, just as I have a lot of Swedish in my ancestry--so any disagreements I have with either country aren't "racially" motivated as some would imply here....

Mainly my beeves with France have to do with a seeming arrogance they have toward some other cultures--particularly, lately it seems, with US culture. But that's fine and good, arrogance can be a weakness anyway....

But ONE thing I condemn France for is getting us into the Vietnam War--using the blackmail of quitting NATO in the 50s unless we send help to keep their Indochinese colony in line (after we fought the Japanese bitterly and finally forced them out). I think we were fools for either not calling their bluff, or letting them throw their little tantrum and quitting NATO (how long would that have lasted anyway?). As it was, they soon abandoned us to fight a war in a faraway jungle and lose thousands of our troops to a war that really wasn't that relevant to our interests....

But no, I don't automatically hate every Frenchman I'll run into, not at all. I've even met a few in travels abroad, and they were mostly quite agreeable (although I avoided talking politics with them, which was probably a good thing for everyone...). And yes, I know the US owes the French a lot for our independence and subsequent development (selling that great Louisiana territory to us at a quite reasonable price, and all). But I think we settled a lot of that debt in WWII though. No, I just disagree with some of the things that that country has done in the last century--just as I trust a lot of French disagree with things the US has done. But I will say that French are treated well when they come here to visit, whereas that can't always be said about Americans visiting Paris now can it? Whether that's symptomatic of French culture in general, or just a few people who take things too personally, I guess only the French can really answer that.

But like every culture, they have some good to offer the world, and I won't deny them some of the positive contributions they've made, particularly in the kitchen!



(P.S. I don't think this thread is bad--I think the question is legitimate, and could lead to better understanding of each other. At least I hope it does....)

(P.P.S. One Frenchman I admire a lot is Frederic Bastiat--too bad his country didn't heed his ideas so well, but their loss....)

 

[G-Man]

I wouldn't say I dislike all French, but too many of them have this snobbish attitude... Try asking a French somthing in English or try to ask for ketchup

I'm not sure if it's just them. I think it's the language. Belgians, you have not been forgiven yet!!!

 

[allan2]

Originally posted by G-Man
I wouldn't say I dislike all French, but too many of them have this snobbish attitude... Try asking a French somthing in English or try to ask for ketchup

I'm not sure if it's just them. I think it's the language. Belgians, you have not been forgiven yet!!!

Maybe it's a little sour grapes at lost glory--French used to be THE international language of diplomacy (and probably commerce)--now it's English.

 

[duke o' york]

In fact, most French people are quite happy to use the English words that have made their way into the language. It is only l'Academie Française who have made it their mission to defend the pure language and think up ridiculous French translations of English phrases that they insist must be used instead. Ask any French person what they plan to do at "le weekend" and they'll be fine with it, but l'AF insist it should be "le fin de la semaine". These ideas are understandably unpopular. The only way a language can say alive is to incorporate new terms all the time, whatever the source. Can anyone think of a better way to say zeitgeist in English in one word? Would anyone prefer "flat Indian bread" to chapati?

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Bashing bait (and very tempting for a Francophobe like me )

The list every thing you do no like about a country/religion/ethnic group/race type thread is a BAD idea. Try dealing with more specific issue, characteristic, or policy of the group, which will yields more informative dicsussion than 50 bad things about X threads.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

I agree with Lefty 100%

Cornmaster requested that this rebuttal HE WROTE be posted, for those who said they hated him, this THE LAST post on this topic:

Originally posted by knowltok2
What is it apart from the people that you hate about the province? The arcitechture? The rivers? Is it perhaps the general shape of the province? Or would it be the government that the people put into place to represent their interests?

What I hate about Quebec is two fold.

1) The whole distinct society thing. Newfoundland is also a distinct society. You can find food and customs and people here, you won't find anywhere else. But we don't cry for special rights. And then threaten the federal government with seperation if we don't get what we want. Did anyone ever read the terms of Quebec seperation? It's worst then NAFTA.

2) Churchhill Falls. Oh...the words just rot me! Quebec had been stealing us blind for 50 years on Churchhill Falls. And yes...I know Joey signed the deal. The stupid Joey Smallwood (See: Great Joey Smallwood) Another common Newfoundland theme. Give away natural resources for nothing. He signed a 50 year deal...in the late 50's for hydro-electric power to Quebec. At a fixed rate. So now it's OBVIOUSLY an unfair price, but will the Quebec government renegoiate the deal? NO! And yes...I know you will say well he signed the deal. Yeah...but Quebec is getting rich off of our hard work. They sell this power to the US and other provinces....and we just get a few pennies. Oh....it's rots me so much.

Anyway....besides for these two points, I have nothing against the people of Quebec.