Why is Granary so important?

[Patricko]

I've heard experienced players say that Granary is the most important building and should be in every city. But why?
I DO tend to build granaries in all my cities, but that's probably partly 'cos I build too many buildings and don't specialise cities enough (one of the many reasons I am stuck at Monarch level )

So...are granaries for:
1. increasing pop quickly?
2. recovering pop after whipping?
3. some other reason?

 

[Fippy]

Because food can be everything, and your only limit are happy caps and sometimes you will even want to ignore those
With every pop your city grows, it needs 2 more food for it's next growth.
Only with granaries you can grow in reasonable time in bigger cities and do other thingies with your pop besides just working food, and like you already said..early you can whip and then prepare more whips much faster.

Another reason would be that tile improvements are more important than buildings in this game often, and granaries are like having extra food tiles.
We can say early libraries are usually important too, but then you already run out of good buildings often. So granaries of course take that top spot

Oh and they also increase health from the most common early resources

 

[TheMadFiddler]

They are also a multiplier for changing food into hammers, that has a greater effect in smaller population cities [ie. early] and things that are good early trump things which are great late.

 

[Pangaea]

You seem to be onto it already, and Fippy also mention the crucial thing about added health.

The main benefit is that you need less food to grow, which is important for both normal growth and regrowth after whipping. You only need half the food to grow, which means whipping is effective at larger city sizes than without a granary.

In most cases it should be the first build in a city - although sometimes you want a monument first (chopped or whipped) to grab second ring resources, or a workboat to get to sea food (particularly if that is the only food resource the city has). But normally granary is first. Granary is the only building you pretty much always HAVE to have in a city, although the same can be said about a forge in most cases too. Besides that, everything is situational.

An alternative way to look at it, is that for for every 2 a city gets without a granary, you are wasting 1. Imagine you are making dinner at home, but are only allowed to eat half. The other must be thrown in the bin. Eek!

 

[Iranon]

More population more quickly gives you more other things more quickly.

Slavery is a big part of it - without granaries, it's typically not very efficient. With granaries, it's usually an excellent option. Assume a small underdeveloped city is being a drain on your economy.

Grow first, build stuff later/slowly? It'll keep being a drain.
Build stuff now, stifling growth? Wasteful if there are any good tiles left unworked.
Keep growing until you can whip key infrastructure? Good compromise.

Granary-assisted Slavery is an efficient production option at stable city sizes in the single digits, but much of its value comes from flexibility and ability to prioritise production over growth in a way that doesn't suck.

 

[Roswinon]

Hmm, really no exceptions?

What about crap tundra cities you just built to get some rare ressource like silver?
Do you build a granary there?

 

[MegaLurker]

The only city that would never want a granary is one that has no food. In which case you probably shouldn't have settled it. The burden of an extra city just to grab a resouce like silver is usually greater than the cost to trade for another happiness resource. The only city that really makes sense that would have no food is one that gets you a crucial strategic resource.

 

[Pangaea]

Maybe I misremember the numbers here, so please correct me if I do.

Without a granary it is effecient, if we are just thinking about to , to whip up to size 6. With a granary, it is efficient up to size 20.... That is the value of a granary.

Of course, with sizes that big you will likely be working many good tiles, and you don't necessarily want to whip about good tiles, but it does show how good whipping is with a granary (provided what I write was correct ).

With standard settings you need 32 to grow to size 7 without a granary.
With a granary you need 32 to grow to size 21.

That difference is simply massive. It gets even better with -multipliers like OR with a religion, Forges.

 

[Patricko]

With standard settings you need 32 to grow to size 7 without a granary.
With a granary you need 32 to grow to size 21.

That is a stunning statistic. I just never realised.

So how soon in the tech research order do you put Pottery? I research techs for local food resources first, then usually Mining/BronzeWorking so I can get chopping and find out where the Copper is, then Wheel/Pottery.

 

[lymond]

So how soon in the tech research order do you put Pottery? I research techs for local food resources first, then usually Mining/BronzeWorking so I can get chopping and find out where the Copper is, then Wheel/Pottery.

As with everything it really depends. Often I don't build Gran in cap very early as there is strong enough tiles or forest to get out stuff and your focus is on early workers and settlers.

Some Civs start with techs that allow you to tech Pot first thing. I might do that if I have a lot of food or the start really screams for early cottages, like an FP start.

Sometimes AH is the more optimal way to get to Writing based on tech/resources, so I might not get Pot until after Writing or even trade for it after Alpha.

Most times though I want Pot as early as possible. The sooner you get Grans the better

 

[sinimusta]

Maybe I misremember the numbers here, so please correct me if I do.

Without a granary it is effecient, if we are just thinking about to , to whip up to size 6. With a granary, it is efficient up to size 20.... That is the value of a granary.

Of course, with sizes that big you will likely be working many good tiles, and you don't necessarily want to whip about good tiles, but it does show how good whipping is with a granary (provided what I write was correct ).

With standard settings you need 32 to grow to size 7 without a granary.
With a granary you need 32 to grow to size 21.

That difference is simply massive. It gets even better with -multipliers like OR with a religion, Forges.

This is true. However I remember one post where grassland farms and whipping were compared to grass hill mines. Over size 10 grass hill mines start beating whipping using grassland farms. Then again higher pop means higher maintenance and it's faster to set up a whipping site.

Hammer multipliers are irrelevant here since they affect all sources of production equally.

 

[MegaLurker]

Simple math to show hammers at the end of X number of turns doesn't really do whipping justice. In the most important part of most games (beginning and whatever military breakout) you whip for speed, not neccessarily efficiency. It is still efficient, though. Whipping keeps maintenance down while keeping productivity fairly high. This is good in the early game when most cities aren't likely producing enough extra commerce with higher population to balance the increased cost. It also allows more flexibility in using those 5-6 yield food tiles by whipping and tile sharing, which can actuallybe more efficient than avoiding growth on 4 yield mines.

 

[cseanny]

So...are granaries for:
1. increasing pop quickly?
2. recovering pop after whipping?
3. some other reason?

Yes, yes, and yes. Others have already mentioned early health but imo the most important factor is production via the whip. Learn to utilize whip overflow........into Wonders, trait and UB modifiers, such as exp workers, Imp settlers, CRE Libraries, or Exp granaries to name a few. Whip away unhappy or unimproved tiles, especially when they incur higher civic and maintenance cost. A few examples are 3 pop whipping settlers at 39/100 for 29 into your next build. A few other magic numbers are 29/60 for whipping 2 pop workers and 69/100 for whipping 2 pop settlers. All three examples give 29 into your next build. If you have the EXP trait any of the above scenarios result in a granary finished the next turn. This becomes quite important when making forges or CHs too. With 29Hs of overflow these buildings quickly become 3 pop whips looking like 6 > 3. Likewise, use overflow into these buildings 2x and then you only need a 2 pop whip of 4 > 2........which is quite attractive when there's a lack of forest but especially food. You can't 3 or 4 pop whip a building if your city has a hard time growing the necessary population.

Matter of fact, here are a few pages worth of reading regarding the whip. The thread started by VoU should be paid some special attention. But in general, although some advice is poor (as with all threads), as a whole, if you read all the articles you're game play will see an immediate improvement.

Edit: Had a link but it doesn't work (it was my own personal search ID link). @ OP - just go to Advance Search > key words "the whip" > titles only. Under search options "find threads with prefix" > pick any. Select a forum to search > Civ IV. You'll find 2 pages dedicated to all things Whip related. And @ Ecuwins, Yes, the thread you mention is one of the better Whip threads.

 

[ecuwins]

Read this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/search.php?searchid=2463577

Your linky no worky, but I assume you mean this article http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193659

 

[rfcfanatic]

Yes, Granary is so important for whipping that I even refuse to whip anything else than Granary without Granary. I basically believe that whipping without Granary does not exist.

 

[robbyextreme]

It depends on settings and mods and the game board. On kmod immo and diety you are massively ed if you do not focus on settlers.workers and military units for thr first 50 turns. Also some games all I have is the default 4 happy cap in all my cities. Why do I want to invest 60 hammers into working 3 tiles after a whip.

But if its a hippy map with free land and fog control with warriors you can skip expanding past 3 cities for a while. have only warriors delay bronzework a bit and grow the cities with max worker tile effecientcy.

Work boats are for noobs. And monuments are situational. Aggro and creative leaders might get their buildings first instead.

If you are getting granarys every game you are not playing a challenging diffuculty or just really anal about generating safe maps.

 

[cseanny]

If you are getting granarys every game you are not playing a challenging diffuculty or just really anal about generating safe maps

We all have different opinions and priorities, and sure, maps can be different and at times call for different builds. However, in general, for any new players out there, this is about the worst advice/statement I can think of.

 

[robbyextreme]

We all have different opinions and priorities, and sure, maps can be different and at times call for different builds. However, in general, for any new players out there, this is about the worst advice/statement I can think of.

I gave some good tips. I really dont think there are different priorities in civ4 for individual players and opinions dont exist. The only decision a player makes in civilization is deciding how they want to win. The game knows and shows you the best win chance for your strategy. Every human opinion besides the computers is wrong.

It's not even that complicated if we just played isolated islands, built granarys, counted resources. And not worry about AI probabilitys every turn.

tl;dr granarys are good unless they are not good.

 

[Pangaea]

If you are getting granarys every game you are not playing a challenging diffuculty or just really anal about generating safe maps.

To put it mildly, that's a very odd thing to say.

Granaries are without comparison the best building in the game, and truly the only building you need in every city. Not in turn 10, but certainly everywhere pretty quickly. They make whipping immensely powerful, and you want to whip.

I agree it's not needed when you have a very low happy cap, as you'll just grow into unhappiness quickly anyway, but unless you're isolated without happiness, the happy cap will increase fairly quickly anyway, and you can always do it with HR, and granaries are simply needed everywhere sooner rather than later no matter the scenario.

The math speaks for itself really. Without a granary whipping is effective up to size 6. With a granary, up to size 20... It's a huge game-changer.

 

[Fintourist]

Work boats are for noobs.

I gave some good tips.

The only thing you said that made any kind of sense was that players need to adapt their play to circumstances. Which is of course true.

However, this discussion is more about why granaries are so good early builds in so many circumstances.