[GS] Why is so difficult to found a religion?

[Bitterman]

So I usually play on emperor alone or on emperor with 1-2 friends. And I must be doing something wrong or maybe something changed after the last patch I don't know (I didn't play for the last 2 months or so).

The thing is that founding a religion takes away so MUCH damn production early game that it seems like a stupid decision unless you are ok with losing good city spots or being vulnerable to attacks. I've tried several times with different civs (Kehmer, Poland, Spain) with no bonuses to founding religions but with a religion-based game and the results have been awful. At best I found, get attacked and retaliate, taking 2-3 cities in the process and getting the upper-hand, which doesn't correspond with the religion-peaceful game that I'm trying to play.

Even if you make projects, you are basically investing your time and production into nothing (i.e. no militar, no workers, no settlers, no wonders or anything that gives you some kind of advantage in the early game). Also, other civs who have absolutely no bonuses to religion like Australia or Sumer seem to try hard to found, making it even more difficult to you. I feel like the benefits to having my own religion are more like a compensation than a real advantage against my opponents.

My question is what build order do you usually follow with that kind of civs when you want to have a religion? How do you approach your neighbour being a warmonger (worse if it's a real player and not the AI)? How do you recover from the massive loss of production of building useless HS's and temples/projects whatever?

 

[Beaver79]

Warrior - settler - settler/or warrior - holy site - shrine -spam holy orders until you get it. On immortal I get a religion every single game. Also religious community helps a lot due to the free settler.

Astrology pretty much has to be your second research to get the holy site up in time. I do get surprise declared on by the AI almost every game, but the 2 warriors I made in the capital, the one from the second city and a bought slinger is enough to hold out and counter attack. If you are playing multi player than yeah I wouldn't do any of this. The AI is so dumb at war though that they rarely take my cities.

 

[BenitoChavez]

Scout -> Builder/Warrior until you hit 2 pop then switch to settler. Research Astrology as your first tech. As soon as you finish your settler build a HS in your capital then a shrine. When you settle your 2nd city build a HS immediately. This usually works on deity but sometimes you have to swap the shrine for HS projects, use your pantheon on Divine Spark, or faith buying the prophet. Just pay attention to the Great People screen and adjust accordingly. This does leave you open to early barbs and AI aggression but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

 

[Troy Bruckner]

The problem on the higher levels is the Ai start with 2 cities produce one or two more very quickly and then build 4 holy sites with shrines rapidly except for one Ai Civ that will march a few warriors at you to make sure you build defenses instead of your own holy sites. Even playing Russia I won't get the first religion even if I build 2 quick Lavras and one shrine. I will have 4 to 6 GPPs going and I will check what they Ai's have and several of them will be at 10+. There is just too much early cheat by the Ai and too much stupidity later.

 

[steveg700]

Well, the AI is certianly too aggressive about religion. I recall that they supposedly pared religiomania down to about 2/3 of the total civ's. Still too many, really. As you say, more trouble than the benefits received (most belief benefits just aren't that baller). But since there is victory condition for it (which I never thought was a great idea), it's necessary that there's AI competition that has nothing to do with whether or not religion is a good investment of time. There's competition for the sake of competition. Can't have a race where just one runner shows up.

 

[enKage]

Hasn't Poland wild card slot? It is huge to found religion.

Anyway, I have quite opposite feeling. recent patch most AIs prioritize encampments over holy sites and I can always found religion on immortal and most of the times on deity. It is quite common world congress even ban great prophet points, so even very late religion possible.
Is it because mod "improving" AI?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The problem on the higher levels is the Ai start with 2 cities produce one or two more very quickly and then build 4 holy sites with shrines rapidly except for one Ai Civ that will march a few warriors at you to make sure you build defenses instead of your own holy sites. Even playing Russia I won't get the first religion even if I build 2 quick Lavras and one shrine. I will have 4 to 6 GPPs going and I will check what they Ai's have and several of them will be at 10+. There is just too much early cheat by the Ai and too much stupidity later.

On higher levels, as a result of the "too much early cheat by the AI and stupidity later", the answer is to concentrate on survival and growth early on, and then conquer a Religion from an AI civ later. A conquered capital makes a perfectly fine Holy City.

Mind you, that does nothing for a 'peaceful religious game', but then, if you look at most religions hard enough, the peaceful aspect gets harder and harder to see . . .

 

[Deadly Dog]

I actually built Stonehenge on immortal this weekend playing as Gitarja. So much stone around my start I figured why not try it, maybe the AI can't get to stone it's all clustered around me.

Not recommending Stonehenge as a strategy, I too find religions hard to get above emperor. Pulled it off with Mail in a solid desert start and it was worth it for Jesuit Education alone. But mostly I have given up on it since GS, running projects to get a late prophet is too costly.

 

[steveg700]

You know, I usually play on emperor or immortal, and I am pretty much never surprise-warred in the ancient era. Not sure why I keep reading all these posts about the hassles with getting early-rushed.

And barbs? Well, after Code of Laws, my starter warrior is usually enough to take out a fortified spearman. Only gets hairy with horses.

 

[Troy Bruckner]

Well, the AI is certianly too aggressive about religion

Understatement

Seriously though it's scripted to cheat early and then it becomes insanely stupid when it votes (and they use up all of their favor to do so) to shut down Prophet GPPs after all religions have been founded.

A tactic I use is after I get a Great Prophet and I am being overrun by their missionaries is I will just put it the Prophet to sleep and wait until the computer blows all the bonus faith it starts the game with or generates fighting the other Ai's to convert my cities while I build a holy site in all of them and then I pop the prophet instantly converting my cities to the new religion.

 

[Abaxial]

For several games I was getting a religion easily, even the first one. Then the last game I couldn't get one at all. It was quite amusing seeing swarms of competing apostles all over my domains, debating each other, and all of no concern to me as I captured more and more cites. I'm sure it does depend who you are up against..

 

[ezzlar]

On higher levels, as a result of the "too much early cheat by the AI and stupidity later", the answer is to concentrate on survival and growth early on, and then conquer a Religion from an AI civ later. A conquered capital makes a perfectly fine Holy City.

Mind you, that does nothing for a 'peaceful religious game', but then, if you look at most religions hard enough, the peaceful aspect gets harder and harder to see . . .

This does not work. You cannot capture a religion. A religious victory would cause the original AI to win.

 

[Victoria]

I guess the simple reason is they wanted to stop all civs getting a religion and not having a religion can really help, especially with loyalty but also diplomacy.

A holy site is the cheapest district to build as it requires just one discovery
A holy site is like a commercial hub and with the loss of harvest goddess and nerfing of earth goddess faith through religion is more important whether you discover a religion or not.
Holy sites help with unique district inspirations
You will have to rush project faith on high levels ASAP. Projects are more powerful done earlier. Yes this does mean you are highly vulnerable to death, a design of the game.
When you get your prophet on high levels do not use it apart from as a scout until you have built up strong faith and have got everything else in place, unless going for an RV. Not only does this allow for a better religious defence but also other civs spend time/resources converting your cities pointlessly.

For me personally, I have enough gold for upgrades, extra gold above that for buying units and GP you will find temples etc are far better value than commercial hubs, it’s just the lack of trade routes but too many trade routes are a pain anyway. If I look up and see a high faith value I am happier than a high gold value but tbh including trade routes they even out and it is more about what CS are in the game. If you have 3 religious ones and 1 commercial spam holy sites, it is better value IMO.

 

[Naeshar]

This does not work. You cannot capture a religion. A religious victory would cause the original AI to win.

Right, however it makes sense to capture a religion, make it dominant in your territory and defend from RV. If the original founder doesn't survive, it cant win.

Founding a religion is not only hard, it is disappointing. It should come with a tradeoff - if you succeed, you fall behind in expansion. If you fail, well, you fail. I never understood the religions map limit. It's not like "there are too many gods already", so you cannot invent new ones or organize new religions. Heck even Orthodoxy and Protestantism were not founded by special prophets but a Schisma.

Holy site is quick and easy first district to get and AIs focus on it (all AIs used to try, that was hard). With increased production and boosted start there is no reason for AI to leave it uncontested. I believe it should be possible to get a prophet later in game.

 

[Bitterman]

Well to be clear I'm not talking about the intrinsic value of faith as a mean to buy whatever. I could build HS's later in the game and play around that and that would be ok.

What I'm bugged about is the fact that founding a religion in this game means to destroy your early game in exchange for what could be nothing, because on top of that you are always on competition with the others and you may not get the beliefs you need (for example, relicaries for kehmer).

Founding a religion can be consistently achieved, but most of the time you're basically crippling yourself in the most critical moments of the game. An average of 7 truns to HS and 5 turns to a temple is just too much for so little. A project on top of that would mean another 5 turns or so, whick would make a total of 15-17 turns to reliably get your religion and the beliefs you want. This is 4 archers or 8 warriors or 2 settlers or 3 workers or 1 campus and half, any of those being infinitely more useful in the early game than a HS and a religion (that, again, may not be the one you want/need).

 

[Victoria]

most of the time you're basically crippling yourself in the most critical moments of the game

I do 100% agree with your comments, the current religion rush costs you 12-15 turns of production in your cap at a time you should be building an army and expanding.
However the RV does not require 20 cities, in fact 3 will do quite well. Unless I go for an RV I tend not to found a religion but do build the odd holy site unless being a civ destroyer which is rare nowadays as there is more value in just pillaging and selling favour. <<<<—— To me this is the GS meta change.

 

[UWHabs]

Early game, I have too much to do to spend time on trying for a religion. Basically, within the first 20-30 turns, I need to:
-build scouts to explore/pop huts/find city-states/gain era score
-build units to defend barbarians/hunt nearby villages
-build settlers to expand and found new cities
-build builders to improve my land/connect resources
-build units to conquer a neighbour/repel an invasion
-build campuses to push my science forward
-build monuments to push my culture
-build granary/watermill to let my cities grow

Not to mention some other things, like building boats to explore/gain era score, completing city-state quests, building other districts for various reasons, getting my government plaza down for the governor titles/building bonus, leveraging my civ's unique abilities, etc...

To me, I can virtually never chase a religion early unless if I can be sure that about half of the above list won't apply to me in the game in question. So, for example, if I don't have a nearby neighbour, that means I only need enough units to defend from barbarians. Or if I get lucky and get the first envoys to a couple solid city-states, or get lucky in popping builders/envoys from huts, then that can save valuable turns otherwise. I also only really chase a religion if I can get that early Astrology boost, since not only is production valuable early, but science too can be a limiting factor. I don't want to waste 10 turns on astrology where I can put that into bronze working to find that critical iron deposit.

Sometimes if I notice that religions are going slowly, I can actually chase it after the initial push. Especially if I can get that early golden age, getting the +4 prophet points from the dedication can push towards a slightly later religion, although invariably whenever I do that, even if I get the religion, by the time I actually build shrines/temples and have enough faith to spend, I'm already at the next era so can never seem to both make use of the prophet points as well as making use of the other bonuses. And in most of those cases, I probably would have been better to pick monumentality and put that faith towards builders/settlers anyways.

 

[Disgustipated]

Haven't founded a religion in a long time. Early after GS was released, I found the AI quite adept at smashing my newly found religion, so I stopped. It's just not worth it unless you have a source of a lot of faith (to spread your religion before the AI can stomp it) from a pantheon.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

This does not work. You cannot capture a religion. A religious victory would cause the original AI to win.

My apologies, I wasn't clear: you cannot capture a 'religion', but you can capture the buildings and districts producing Faith points and use them. Most of my Settlers and a number of my Builders are 'bought' with Faith during my early and mid game. I've never played for a Religious Victory, but I frequently makes lots of use of Faith for other types of Great People and other 'purchases'.

The real problem, as others have commented, is that 'Religion' in the game is entirely a product of your Actions instead of being something you have to React To. Religions were rarely started by any government: the government has to react to it to either (attempt to) suppress it or endorse/embrace it. Having Religions 'spawn' like Barbarians and present you with Problems/Opportunities rather than Require you to invest scarce resources to 'get' a religion right in the early Game when Religion should be a major factor in how and in which directions your Civ develops, would be a much better way to implement the 'Religious Game'.

Maybe in Civ VII . . .

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Astrology doesn't quite have to be your first tech; I find it's okay to get to archery first so you aren't a complete sitting duck. Lately I find barbarians to be a bigger threat early on than the other civs but I've have good results with two warriors and three archers. That also gives you time to get your first expo out. If you're playing Poland you can slot Revelation (+2 GP points per turn) before you build your Holy Sites. You still need to get your HS up ASAP after archery so you can run Prayers but unlocking Mysticism will save Poland both turns and hammers towards religion at the expense of a few turns towards Poli Sci. If you take Choral Music and get your shrines up quickly it won't even slow that down.

My apologies, I wasn't clear: you cannot capture a 'religion', but you can capture the buildings and districts producing Faith points and use them. Most of my Settlers and a number of my Builders are 'bought' with Faith during my early and mid game. I've never played for a Religious Victory, but I frequently makes lots of use of Faith for other types of Great People and other 'purchases'.

The real problem, as others have commented, is that 'Religion' in the game is entirely a product of your Actions instead of being something you have to React To. Religions were rarely started by any government: the government has to react to it to either (attempt to) suppress it or endorse/embrace it. Having Religions 'spawn' like Barbarians and present you with Problems/Opportunities rather than Require you to invest scarce resources to 'get' a religion right in the early Game when Religion should be a major factor in how and in which directions your Civ develops, would be a much better way to implement the 'Religious Game'.

Maybe in Civ VII . . .

I agree completely. I dislike that Faith is essentially a magic currency. Religion shouldn't be something you do, it should be something that happens to you. Depending on circumstances (war vs. prosperity) that might mean the spontaneous emergence of something beneficial like warrior monks, medical clinics or educational institutions. On the other hand they might develop dietary restrictions that impose food penalties, or dogmatic beliefs that cause science/culture/diplomatic penalties. Maybe you get a number of free units but MUST go to war for the next X number of turns. Inquisitions should cause population loss and unhappiness. It should be a mixed bag; no bonus without blight and not a VC at all. I don't want to get too far off topic though- the game is fun as it stands even if the religion aspect is a little silly.