Why Libertarians are screwed.

Mojotronica

Expect Irony.
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The Nanny in Chief
Bush thinks he knows what's good for you, and he'll spend money to prove it
By ANDREW SULLIVAN

There's barely a speech by President Bush that doesn't cite the glories of human freedom. It's God's gift to mankind, he believes. And in some ways this President has clearly expanded it: the people of Afghanistan and Iraq enjoy liberties unimaginable only a few years ago. But there's a strange exception to this Bush doctrine. It ends when you reach America's shores. Within the U.S., the Bush Administration has shown an unusually hostile attitude toward the exercise of personal freedom. When your individual choices conflict with what the Bush people think is good for you, they have been only too happy to intervene. The government, Bush clearly believes, has a right to be involved in many personal decisions you make — punishing some, encouraging others, nudging and prodding the public to live the good life as the President understands it. The nanny state, much loved by Democrats, is thriving under Republicans.

Just recall Bush's State of the Union address last week. People used to ridicule President Clinton's laundry list of micro-initiatives. But Bush is no different. Where once education was essentially the preserve of states, school principals and parents, this President has expanded the federal role in unprecedented ways. The No Child Left Behind Act holds states and localities accountable for meeting educational standards in order to qualify for federal funds. No wonder Ted Kennedy originally signed on.

In his speech, the President unveiled millions of dollars to randomly test high school kids for drug use. He is doubling the federal money currently spent to admonish teens to practice sexual abstinence. He is spending hundreds of millions of dollars on antidrug propaganda and sending federal agents to bust pot clubs for those using medical marijuana to ease the pain of crippling diseases. Republican Senators are even trying to withhold federal funding from states that allow medical-marijuana ads on public transport. These are not unrelated measures. The President is proud of his Big Government moralism. As he put it in his first State of the Union message, "Values are important, so we have tripled funding for character education to teach our children not only reading and writing, but right from wrong." Sounds inoffensive enough. But who exactly determines what is right and what is wrong? Churches? Synagogues? Parents? Teachers? Nah. The Federal Government.

Once upon a time, Republicans believed in leaving it to the private and voluntary sectors to do the important work of building citizenship and values. Remember the "thousand points of light"? These days those lightbulbs need government subsidies. One of the key beliefs of this President is that federal money should be funneled to religious groups that blend proselytizing with important social work. His faith-based initiative largely withered on the vine, but he has done what he can. In last year's State of the Union message, he proposed almost half a billion dollars to pay for mentors for disadvantaged high school students or the children of prisoners. This year he proposed an extensive government program to coach newly released ex-cons into better lives. Ever wonder who these government-backed mentors are? And what exactly they're preaching? Maybe you should, because you're paying for them.

States' rights? Only if the states do what the President believes in. How else to explain the vast expansion of federal power that the Partial Birth Abortion Act entailed, limiting the rights of states to regulate abortion as they see fit? On medical marijuana, the Bush doctrine has led to federal agents' overruling state laws that tolerate the use of pot for medicinal purposes. Gay marriage? The Bush Administration is close to backing a federal constitutional amendment that would overrule any state that decided to give marriages — or even civil unions and domestic partnerships — to gays. States' rights are all well and good — as long as the states don't do things that some Republicans disapprove of.

Want to lose weight using ephedra? You can't. Bush's FDA has banned the over-the-counter supplement. Steroids? You heard the Nanny in Chief. And if you're a scientist researching a touchy subject, be prepared to feel the breath of Big Government down the back of your white coat. Early on in his Administration, the President — not scientists or patients — decided exactly how far federally funded research into stem cells could go. Cloning technologies? Forget about it.

There has always been a tension in conservatism between those who favor more liberty and those who want more morality. But what's indisputable is that Bush's "compassionate conservatism" is a move toward the latter — the use of the government to impose and subsidize certain morals over others. He is fusing Big Government liberalism with religious-right moralism. It's the nanny state with more cash. Your cash, that is. And their morals.

From the Feb. 02, 2004 issue of TIME magazine
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040202-582330,00.html

***

I think that libertarian ideals are basically under seige from both sides -- the Republicans attack civil liberties as enumerated above, the Democrats attack civil liberties in the form of gun control and moralism based on humanist values. And in practice, all mainstream politicians have found it useful to take a "tough on crime" stance -- especially consensual crimes like marijuana distribution.

Libertarianism enjoys periods of popularity, but public sentiment is hardening against it lately.
 
I tend to think such things are cyclic, and inevitable. Unfortunately, and historically, but of that cycle appears to be a violent backlash.

The hard the fist squeezes, the higher the pressure - the bigger the explosion :(
 
Originally posted by Mojotronica

I think that libertarian ideals are basically under seige from both sides -- the Republicans attack civil liberties as enumerated above, the Democrats attack civil liberties in the form of gun control and moralism based on humanist values. And in practice, all mainstream politicians have found it useful to take a "tough on crime" stance -- especially consensual crimes like marijuana distribution.

Libertarianism enjoys periods of popularity, but public sentiment is hardening against it lately.

Well put, and I concur. I've always reluctantly favored Republicans as being slightly more libertarian-leaning than most Democrats, but aside from Rep. Ron Paul and a few others, Republicans have left me cold under Bush II's reign. Absent an actual Libertarian Party candidate this year, I might actually lean toward voting Democrat in the Presidential election. This poorly-defined pseudo-war on terrorism easily surpasses the "War on Drugs" in terms of collateral damage to the liberties of American citizens.
 
I agree with you IglooDude. I usually vote straight ticket Libertarian, because both big parties stand for more of what I am against than collectively what I am for.

Good article, Mojotronica. Except now I'm depressed. :(
 
I will NEVER vote for a Democrat, but I have to wonder WTH George W. is thinking. Now he and Laura want to increase money for the NEA, which conservatives would rather see abolished :no:
 
From the article.


Where once education was essentially the preserve of states, school principals and parents, this President has expanded the federal role in unprecedented ways. The No Child Left Behind Act holds states and localities accountable for meeting educational standards in order to qualify for federal funds.

But would such a policy neccesearily run against 'small government'. If the individual states were not held accountable for how they used their money, then surely this would mean 'bigger government', as in the government has a greater share of total GDP.

I suppose there is some confusion as to what 'big governmnet' means. To me it means the size of the budget. Ruling on morality issues is not 'big governmnet'. That is fundamentalism.
 
Libertarianism enjoys periods of popularity, but public sentiment is hardening against it lately.

Probably because they write stupid editorials in the newspaper, make decent points about problems with the government, then say "so how can you help solve all the country's problems? Vote straigh libertarian in the next election" :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Speedo


Probably because they write stupid editorials in the newspaper, make decent points about problems with the government, then say "so how can you help solve all the country's problems? Vote straigh libertarian in the next election" :rolleyes:

Well, what did you think the solution was? A coup? Voting is about all we can do legally.
 
many of them(people in the Libertarian Party) don't understand external costs. for example, one that i was talking to said that people should be able to dump waste wherever they please. "My right to punch ends where your nose begins." although i support Civil Rights and no government control on personal freedoms(my definition of personal freedomd) and i scored a -6.00(Authoritairan/Libertarian) on a survey at www.politicalcompass.org , the Libertarians seem somewhat screwy.
 
Kind of Off-Topic, but I am amazed at how different US Politics are the Canadian Politics. Different Country, Different Rules, as I like to say.

(OT in the OT Forum. Hehe)
 
Originally posted by Mojotronica
Libertarianism enjoys periods of popularity, but public sentiment is hardening against it lately.
Well, I don't know about "hardening" since the public at large has little grasp of what it is or what it means. Most fiscal conservatives within the Republican party are quite fed up with Bush, however, and it might cost him the election. This article doesn't really paint a clear picture either way in regards to public attitudes towards Libertarianism, in my opinion.
 
Libertarianism is not a big enough tent to get enough people under it to survive. Economic libertarians could never put up with the pot smoke and sex on the streets and social libertarians are normally quasi-Socialist.
 
Originally posted by Dr. Dr. Doktor
From the article.But would such a policy neccesearily run against 'small government'. If the individual states were not held accountable for how they used their money, then surely this would mean 'bigger government', as in the government has a greater share of total GDP.

I suppose there is some confusion as to what 'big governmnet' means. To me it means the size of the budget. Ruling on morality issues is not 'big governmnet'. That is fundamentalism.
It's definitly big government! What it basicly says is, "We don't think our nation's schools can run themselves so we will try to come up with objectives that politicians support". So the result is an increased amount of beaurocracy to meet stupid standards, and i threatens good schools that for some reason fail there precise statisitical definition of a "good school" and destroying all the progress of the teachers, it's sickening!
 
Originally posted by archer_007
Economic libertarians could never put up with the pot smoke and sex on the streets
I can
 
Originally posted by archer_007
Libertarianism is not a big enough tent to get enough people under it to survive. Economic libertarians could never put up with the pot smoke and sex on the streets and social libertarians are normally quasi-Socialist.
That's total nonsense. Neither of those groups you described could even be called "libertarian" in the first place. Since what you don't know about libertarianism could probably fill several volumes, I suggest you learn a bit about it and get back to this thread when you're done. We'll be waiting.
 
Originally posted by Speedo


Probably because they write stupid editorials in the newspaper, make decent points about problems with the government, then say "so how can you help solve all the country's problems? Vote straigh libertarian in the next election" :rolleyes:

Given that the two current major parties are in most cases causing or actively supporting the "problems with the government" I don't see any solution other than getting a new party into office.
 
Well, what did you think the solution was? A coup? Voting is about all we can do legally.

Anybody ******** enough to be advocating something as a magic cure-all isn't getting my vote.
 
A libertarian party is what the US lacks. Yet they have no chance in gaining ground, as long the myth lingers, the republican party has anything to do with fiscal conservatism. Only de-mystification can bring the libertarian party into the playing-field. Obviously, this will happen when the consequences of a heavy spending based supply-economy hits like a hangover in the morning. At this time, libertarians may gain momentum.
 
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