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Why so few beliefs?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by pineappledan, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    My suggestion for the Enhancers (numbers are only first suggestions and have to be tested in the game):

    Sacral Monuments:
    +3 :c5greatperson: for Writer/Artists/Musician in capital
    Double the flat yields from National and World Wonders
    -5% :c5greatperson: cost for Great People

    Godly Inspiration:
    +3 :c5greatperson: for Engineer/Merchant/Scientist in Capital
    If you use an Engineer/Merchant/Scientist, the closest city start a 10 turn WLTKD
    +3% of :c5production: is converted to :c5faith: and :c5science:

    Inquisition:
    Missionaries of this Religion erode existing Pressure from other Relgions by 33% when they spread Religion.
    +25% resistance against religious pressure
    Gain 10 :c5gold: and 4:c5faith: for each follower you convert to your religion and 2:c5faith: 3:c5gold: for each foreign city following your religion

    The Awakening and Contemplation:
    Every time you research a technology, gain 2,5% of the technology cost as :c5faith: and :c5culture:
    Every time you unlock a policy, gain 2,5% of the policy cost as :c5gold: and :c5science:

    Mendicancy:
    Every non-puppet city earns 66% of the yields :c5gold:/:c5culture:/:c5science: of the capital, divided by the number of non-puppet cities
    +2% :c5faith: generation in capital for each owned city with this religion, capped at 20%

    Prophecy:
    Prophets are 30% cheaper and have 1 more charge
    GPTI and landmarks get +2:c5faith::c5culture::tourism:, triple the amount for holy sites
    +10% resistance against religioius pressure

    Orthodoxy:
    Religion spreads 20% faster and to cities 20% further away
    Pressure to friendly CS doubled
    Gain 2:c5gold: and 2:c5goldenage: for every 8 Followers of this Religion in Foreign Cities.

    Distance to the material world:
    +1 Faith, Science, and :c5culture: Production in Holy City for every 2 Followers of other Religion in owned Cities.
    Benefit from the pantheons of the 2 strongest religions in your cities

    The Hajj:
    Great works get +2:tourism: and +1:c5goldenage::c5science:, Landmarks get+4 :tourism: and +2:c5goldenage::c5science:
    +5% religious pressure and tourism modifier to other civilizations for each level of influence you have over them
    Limit for acheologists increased by 2, movement increased by 1 and they are 33% cheaper

    Proselytismus:
    Cities which are target by an own spy or trade route receive +50 religious pressure
    Gain +1 :trade: trade route and 20% of the gold from external trade routes is added as :c5faith: in the starting city
    +10:c5gold: :c5culture::c5faith: from the East India Company
     
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  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I support splitting iconography into two beliefs as well, but I don't think we need add so many effects (especially new code ones). Really I think both are worth choosing just for the :c5greatperson:.
    The first one is fine at like 3 :c5greatperson:. Like +2 :c5culture: to great works is enough of a secondary effect. If it really needs another effect. Doubling flat yields on wonders is new code and is extremely powerful on a few of the wonders.

    The second, I think it should just be 3:c5greatperson: for the relevant great people, but if it needs more like +2:c5science: to great person tiles. I'm pretty sure the other effects are new code.

    We don't need to totally overhaul the other beliefs. I think mendicancy and dioceses are fine. If you make the beliefs much stronger than these guys, you tilt the game towards you must lead a religion to win. I think syncretism's design isn't working, it is either useless or you conquer foreign religions and it becomes OP (you can get like a 1000 production capital in industrial era)
     
  3. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Prince

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    This is a really weird thought, but Reformers are usually the Faith sinks, so maybe Zealotry should be a Reformation belief instead (maybe with some adjustment?) By the same token, Crusader Spirit and Defender of the Faith don't sink Faith, so perhaps they could be the militaristic Enhancers. Global Commandments also feels a bit swingy to me now, I'd like if the yields were less but you could faith buy Diplo units.
     
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  4. kenneth1221

    kenneth1221 Warlord

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    Would Crusader Spirit and Defender of the Faith be too much power for an Enhancer, though? Second prophet = war machine. Might be too much of a spike too soon. Like the idea of faith buying diplo units though.
     
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  5. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Some adjustments:

    Sacral Monuments:
    +3 :c5greatperson: for Writer/Artists/Musician in capital
    National and World Wonders gain +1:tourism::c5faith::c5culture:
    Gain a free Writer

    Godly Inspiration:
    +3 :c5greatperson: for Engineer/Merchant/Scientist in Capital
    +1:c5faith: and the base yield for Engineer/Merchant/Scientist
    Gain a free Engineer

    Inquisition:
    Missionaries of this Religion erode existing Pressure from other Relgions by 33% when they spread Religion.
    +20% resistance against religious pressure
    +2:c5faith: and +3:c5gold: for each foreign city following your religion

    The Awakening and Contemplation:
    Every time you research a technology, gain 2% of the technology cost as :c5faith: and :c5culture:
    Every time you unlock a policy, gain 2% of the policy cost as :c5gold: and :c5science:
    Gain a free Scientist

    Mendicancy:
    Every non-puppet city earns 50% of the yields :c5gold:/:c5culture:/:c5science: of the capital, divided by the number of non-puppet cities
    +2% :c5faith: generation in capital for each owned city with this religion, capped at 20%

    Prophecy:
    Prophets are 25% cheaper
    GPTI and landmarks get +2:c5faith:2:c5gold:
    Holy sites get additional +2:c5faith:+6:c5culture:+4:tourism:
    Gain a free Prophet

    Orthodoxy:
    Religion spreads 20% faster and to cities 20% further away
    Pressure to friendly CS doubled
    Gain 2:c5gold: and 2:c5goldenage: for every 8 Followers of this Religion in Foreign Cities.

    Distance to the material world:
    +1 :c5faith::c5science::c5production: in Holy City for every 2 Followers of other Religion in owned Cities.
    +5:c5culture: for citizen birth in city, scaling with era

    The Hajj:
    Great works get +2:tourism: and +1:c5goldenage::c5science:, Landmarks get +5 :tourism: and +2:c5goldenage::c5science:
    Limit for acheologists increased by 2, movement increased by 1 and they are 33% cheaper

    Proselytismus:
    Cities which are target by an own spy or trade route receive +40 religious pressure
    Gain +1 :trade: trade route
    +10:c5gold: :c5culture::c5faith: from the East India Company

    Civil mission:
    +2:c5culture::c5faith: for each own city
    +2:c5food: or :c5production: for internal trade routes, scaling with era

    Unity thoughts:
    -5% penalty and +10% growth in :c5puppet: puppets
    Gain 1 turn of the yields of your capital, if you conquer a city the first time and trigger a 5 turn WLTKD
    Gain a Great General
     
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  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    They are much stronger than the current enhancer beliefs.

    My response to bite's suggestion is that they are a lot stronger than the current enhancer beliefs, only the leader of a religion gets enhancer beliefs, and I'm think a civ should be able to compete without leading a religion.
     
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  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    It's really sounding to me like Enhancers should return to either enhancing you ability to spread, enhancing your ability to resist spread, or enhancing your rewards for spreading. There can be a secondary effect, but there should always be some sort of bonus for spreading/resisting.

    Spoiler The current spread and anti-spread Enhancers :

    Rewards spreading:
    Dioceses
    :c5capital: Capital gains +10:c5culture: Culture and Holy City gains +10:c5faith: Faith.
    +2:c5goldenage: Golden Age Points and :c5gold:Gold in Holy for every City following this Religion.
    Missionaries of this Religion 25% stronger.

    Orthodoxy
    Religion spreads 20% faster (40% with Printing Press).
    Religion spreads to cities 20% further away.
    Pressure to friendly City-States and via owned :trade:Trade Routes doubled.

    Universalism
    +1:c5gold: Gold and :c5faith:Faith in Holy City for every 10 Followers of this Religion in Foreign Cities.
    Missionaries of this Religion erode existing Pressure from other Religions by 50% when they spread Religion.

    Zealotry
    Strategic Resource quantities increase by 1% per following City (up to 25%).
    May spend Faith to purchase land units in Cities.

    Rewards for being spread to:
    Syncretism
    +1 :c5faith:Faith, :c5science:Science, and :c5production:Production in Holy City for every 2 Followers of other Religions in owned Cities.
    +5:c5culture: Culture when a Citizen is born in an owned City Following this Religion.

    Resists Spreading:
    Prophecy
    Prophets of this Religion are 25% stronger and Cost 25% less.
    +3 :c5faith:,:c5culture: & :tourism: to Holy Sites.
    If this is the Majority Religion, Follower reduction from Inquisitors and Prophets is halved.

    Inquisition
    Inquisitors cost 25% less :c5faith: Faith and generate :c5gold:500 Gold when they change a City's Religion (declines with Era).
    Spies exert +50 Religious Pressure (standard speed) on the City they occupy and +2:c5happy: Happiness if in a Foreign City.

    Spoiler Here are the Enhancers which have no spread or resistance component :

    Iconography
    Policy requirements for Wonders reduced.
    +2 :c5greatperson: Great Person Points for all GP.
    +15%:c5greatperson: Great Person rate during a:c5goldenage: Golden Age.

    Mendicancy
    +2:c5culture: Culture and :c5faith:Faith in all owned Cities Following this Religion.
    Internal Trade Routes generate +2 of their respective yield, scaling with Era.

    So maybe we need to look at changing Mendicancy in addition to Iconography?

    How about this?
    (Enhancer) - Iconography
    +3:c5greatperson:Great Engineer Points in your :c5capital:Capital
    +1:c5greatperson:Point towards Great Writer/Artist/Musician in your Holy City for every Civilization sharing your Majority Religion
    +15%:c5greatperson:Great Person rate during a:c5goldenage: Golden Age.

    (Enhancer) - Aniconism
    50:c5science: for every citizen converted by an Inquisitor.
    +20 Pressure in cities with an Inquisitor.
    -10%:c5gold:Building maintenance on Empire.

    (Enhancer) - Liturgical Language
    +1%:tourism: Tourism modifier towards a target civilization for every Follower in the Target Civilization's cities (max of 34%).
    :tourism:Tourism from Theming bonuses Doubled in cities following this Religion

    Mendicancy moved to Follower Belief:
    (Follower) - Mendicancy
    Internal Trade Routes generate +2 of their respective yield, scaling with Era.
    +2:c5production: Production if City has a Specialist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
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  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think its probably worth breaking out each religion piece into its own thread in the General Balance forum. Otherwise, your going to see discussion just bounce around and around.
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I don’t think people would appreciate 5 ongoing discussion threads for a single topic. Seems like a possible 10th reformation and founder belief have more or less been approved by people, it’s just enhancers and followers.

    the more I think about enhancers the more an enhanced that doesn’t scale with followers/spreading seems like a cop out. People talk about how the religion game gets stale in later eras, and it’s because they can take mendicancy, iconography, or to an extent prophecy and get 100% of the power from their enhancer without doing anything.
     
  10. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    I see how everyone is concerned about iconography while prophecy + Holy lands is really powerful and sometimes game changing with any civ or traits that can generate faith rapidly like wide Constantinople, warmonger Spain, Orders in any wide empire generate tons of faith and it scales per era or Hero worship which is essentially a great prophet per conquered for the first couple of cities.
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Reformation beliefs are a reason to spread your religion regardless of your enhancer.
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I'll finally throw my hat in and comment on some of these.

     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
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  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I do like the idea of this belief. I think you could go with a "God of All Creation" concept....a big shot in the arm belief very early that then drops to obscurity later in the game. My thought would be:

    God of All Nations
    2:c5gold:Gold and 1:c5faith:Faith for each CS you have met (max 12). Completing City-State Quests grants +10:c5influence: Influence.


    So in the right circumstances, you could be getting a +5 faith/+10 gold bonus right when you get your pantheon. That's a very solid platform for founding with a nice shot of gold to back you up. The influence bonus helps to secure friends and allies in the early game (and maintain those longer)...later on its a nice little addon but practically fluff at that point. Past the midgame the bonuses have almost no scale but the pantheon has done its job.
     
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  14. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    I dont share your opinion about "Sacral Monuments" and "Godly Inspiration", only some GPP you otherwise could generate by a guild/specialist isnt that much in my eyes.
    But I like pineappledans suggestion to integrate the amount of foreign civs with your religion to get counted in this enhancer, so I would melt it together to:

    Sacral Monuments:
    +2:c5greatperson: towards Great Writer/Artist/Musician in your Holy City and additional +1:c5greatperson: for every foreign Civilization sharing your Majority Religion
    National and World Wonders gain +1:tourism::c5culture:

    Godly Inspiration:
    +2:c5greatperson: towards Great Engineer/Merchant/Scientist in your Holy City and additional +1:c5greatperson: for every foreign Civilization sharing your Majority Religion
    +1:c5faith::c5goldenage: for each Engineer/Merchant/Scientist in Capital

    The thought behind this is, if you use missionaries, you want to convert other cities, you dont really care how many followers you generate, its only important that those cities convert. Cause of that I think the "per city" trigger is here better chosen than the amount of followers.

    Balancing this should be very easy, cause you can easily track the amount of yields you get over the game. If your tech costs are very high cause of a lot of cities, you get of course more culture, but this isnt automatically worth more, cause the policy cost are higher too. And vice versa. The aim was to create something interesting for players heading towards a SV.

    We can call it civil mission for simplicity, I only thought Mendicancy wasnt that good fitting with the other enhancer. To answer your question, lets change the text a bit:

    Mendicancy:
    Every non-puppet non-capital city earns 50% of the yields :c5gold:/:c5culture:/:c5science: of the capital, divided by the number of non-puppet (but with capital) cities

    So, in a 2 city empire, the second city would earn 50%/2 yields of the capital, so 25%.
    In a 4 city empire, each of the 3 satelite cities would get 50%/4 of the yields from the capital, so 3 times 12,5%, in total 37,5%.
    As you can see, it balance it self. With very few cities, a big amount of yields is taken away to make it less impactful for small empires. But with more cities, you get more yields, but those are less and less impactful, cause of the size of your empire. The Number 50% has to be tested, but I really like this enhancer.

    Others claimed, that Diocese gives more additional culture and faith, till you have placed your 4th holy site, which need some time. So a rise of yields for the holy site seems necessary. A bit nerfed, how is this?

    Prophecy:
    Prophets are 25% cheaper
    GPTI and landmarks get +1:c5faith:1:c5gold:
    Holy sites get additional +4:c5faith:4:c5culture:4:tourism:

    Ive played enough India games on pangäa or continents and have to say, the extra pressure needs forever to be impactful against other civilizations. A benefit which only increase a bit the pressure but without any real benefit is in my eyes a bit lame. The Orthodoxy I have in mind is like a fire and forget rocket. Pick it, the pressure do its work and you earn cheap yields without any necessary effort.

    Yes, this is one of my favourites too. I dont think it would need lot of coding stuff, cause the base is already there (double pressure for trade route target from Orthodoxy and spy cause religious pressure from Inquisition). How would be this?

    Cross-Cultural Exchange:
    Cities which are target by an own spy or trade route receive +30 religious pressure
    Gain +1 :trade: trade route and +1:c5faith:1:c5science: in capital for each trade unit you own

    My Inquisition is the replacement for Dioceses. And Inquisition is erased, only taken the spy=pressure idea for Proselytismus/Cross-Cultural Exchange.
    Zealotry can stay as it is. Iam no friend of it, but I think its a fine enhancer. Unity thoughts was an idea for a second warmonger enhancer. Not the best, I agree.[/QUOTE]
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    [/QUOTE]
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Bite I really think your enhancer suggestions can be summarized as "Lead or a religion or lose the game".
    In my last tradition game, as of industrial era, my capital has about 600 culture.

    So with 1 other city, this is worth 150 culture. (50% of 600 divided by 2)
    With 2, its worth 200.
    With 3, its worth 225.

    This doesn't even factor the gold or science, and you can get more culture than I did that game. This is so far from being balanced. If you cut it to just 5% instead of 50%, its still far too strong. Your other suggestions aren't as broken, but they are still way overpowered. Your enhancer beliefs don't need to provide hundreds of yields, there needs to be a balance between civs with and without religions.

    I don't see how civs without faith are even supposed to compete in viability with India or Ethiopia if the beliefs are this strong.

    Edit: Fixed the math
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  17. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Just wanted to chip in that I like a lot of the ideas here conceptually. It's cool to see people coming up with new stuff that could be fun to play with. I haven't taken a hard look at everything balance-wise though, and generally speaking I'm inclined to be cautious and make small changes before introducing things that would affect the meta in a significant way. I think the objective we are working towards is just to give people more choice (and not feel locked in if you found late). So improving underperforming beliefs is great, but we should be careful that new beliefs (or new mechanics within existing beliefs) that are added don't create more balance issues than they are solving. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to go into this subject in detail. Religion is something I really enjoy as part of the game, and I'm always keen to see what the community comes up with :).
     
  18. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Sacral Monuments and Godly Inspiration are weaker than Iconography at the moment. It's base is only 6:c5greatperson:, with converting 2 other civilizations it would be 12:c5greatperson:. Iconography gives 14:c5greatperson:, 16:c5greatperson: in GA plus the ability to build World Wonders probably earlier than others. So I think those 2 suggestions would fit the balance.
    I agree, the number is for that yield type far too strong. But I really like this idea and think that super tall players would like it to, so why not another adjustment:

    Civil mission:
    40% of the :c5food:/:c5faith: yields of the capital are split on all other non-puppet cities
    +10% :c5food: food in capital

    :c5food: Food isn't super valuable and :c5food:
    /:c5faith: are both not growing that much into the late game.

    Other idea:
    Civil mission (2):
    10% of the :c5gold:/:c5culture:/:c5science: yields above the needs in the capital are divided among all other non-puppet cities.

    I think this creates an interesting mechanic and some decision options. Rising the population of the capital would mean more pop and yields, but maybe at the cost of efficiancy, which would lower the yields. Drawing hammers away from the capital to do public works would increase the yields on other places but in the same time it means you are reducing your ability to build wonders or military units in your capital. Not sure if this would be crap or op, cause there's also the chance that you get nothing cause your capital didn't hit the needs (large empires with a lot of empire needs modificator would lower the yields significantly).

    You missed an essential point.
    If, for example, half your UA/UB power is based on religion/founding, then you need to get something for it. Cause you have to compare this 50% UA power with other civs, and 50% of the power of UA/UB from other civs can be stronger than being able to found as the first one.
    Which benefits do you have from your UA, if you start with India mostly isolated on a small continent? Getting faster growth and being able to founding/enhancing a religion faster.
    Is this comparable with, let's say the yields from finishing trade routes from the ottoman UA?
     
  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Do you think religion is currently too weak? I don't. I find religion so strong that I pursue one every single game, and I have never felt the rewards were lacking at all. I haven't seen any comments from other users about religion not being worthwhile.

    I'd challenge you to win a game where you don't found a religion and never conquer a holy city, and share screenshots on the forum.
     
  20. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    The strength of the own religion is more the perfect adjustment to your favoured win condition, than the bonuses a religion give. Sooner or later a religion will find his way into your civilization and you can adopt it.
    If you try to win a CV and get converted by a religion which is perfectly fitted for a CV, the enhancer and one vote in the world congress will be the only difference you will have from the founder of the religion.
    And you get this without the need to invest 2 prophets or invest early hammers into religious buildings except a shrine in your capital.

    Would you try to get your own religion at all cost, if you know, your neighbor will create a religion which will fit your needs very well? And you are able to invest the stuff for the religious race into other aspects, like wonders or military invasions?
     

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