Why us Europeans should think twice before criticising the USA

Archer 007 said:
Sims, even though terroists werent there beforehand, they will be if we turn tail and run.

They are there now. Every troop we send over there creates more anger, and people do crazy things when angry (Voting for Hitler, ect.). The sooner we leave the less they'll hate us, and thereby if we leave sooner, there'll be less terrorists.
 
Sims2789 said:
They are there now. Every troop we send over there creates more anger, and people do crazy things when angry (Voting for Hitler, ect.). The sooner we leave the less they'll hate us, and thereby if we leave sooner, there'll be less terrorists.

And as a bonus, we will see a lot of action-packed news coverage about the ensuing power vacuum and bloody civil war!
 
Sarevok said:
I agree, that is the only reason why France went in.

Oh come on!!!!

Though it most certainly plays a big role, it is a ounch below the belt to say it was the only reason!

Such remarks are not too different from 'invading Iraq was just for securing oil production'.
 
Merc said:
And as a bonus, we will see a lot of action-packed news coverage about the ensuing power vacuum and bloody civil war!

Yep, but this was to be expected when the USA government decided to invade Iraq. It was and is a hornets nest and wasps can sting in an annoying way.
 
There a few things here that I disagree with...

Firstly, the assumption that European nations are passive players:
- the country with the largest number of troops on mandated peacekeeping work is Germany - how does this sit with the supposed indifference of European countries?
- intervention in Rwanda, the worst genocide since Pol Pot, was blocked at the UN by the US - again, not really an example of European inaction?
- aid: European countries pay more toward the upkeep of the UN than the US both in absolute and per capita terms; they also pay more in foreign aid than the US on both premises, and some European countries (not all) have removed the linkage between aid and political or economic 'co-operation' that teh US pushes so hard and is causing real problems in places like Afghanistan.
- Sudan; Germany, at least, has been pushing very hard on Sudan - the Euro countries have certainly not been any less diligent than the US, they just haven't threatened the use of overt force.

So I think it is unreasonable to characterise the Euro countries as less decisive and less driven by moral precepts.

All that being said, the European performance in the Balkan crisis, especially at the outset, was utterly appalling, with the UK being particularly inept and weak. Certainly the UK and US were well aware of the Serb use of concentration camp and systematic rape as early as 1991 (out of interest, under Major in the UK and GWB senior and Lawrence Eagleburger in the US, the leadesr of the coalition that freed Kuwait just before) and actively covered it up.

The UN was also aware, with the UN rapporteur making frequent and damning reports to the Security Council and Boutros-Gahli, who chose to ignore it. In Boutros-Ghali's case, he dismissed it on the grounds that Europe and the US were only interested in the deaths in the first world and didn't give a damn about Africa, so why should the rest of the world bother about Bosnia. My contempt for this man is absolute....

The UK government characterised this as a civil war and consistently played down Serbian atrocities and tried to pretend that all sides were equally bad - the more I read up about this the more I am appalled at the actions of 'my' government who (along with Russia) were the most obstructive against intervention even when they knew what was really happening.

By pushing for, and getting, an arms embargo AFTER the Serbs had seized all the old Yugoslav armoury, they condemned the Bosnians to fighting with both hands tied behind their backs.

The UN got caught out badly from a military perspective - Serbia happily let peacekeepers into tight enclaves to 'protect' the local population - in practice these 'peacekeepers' were hostages to the serb artillerymen on the hillsides, with the UN high command unwilling to call in air strikes against serb positions for fear of retaliation, an advantage teh Serbs exploited to the full.

Almost all those 'safe havens' were then overrun, the massacres at Srebrenica finally forcing the reality of the situation on the public at the same time that the 'hostage' UN troops were effectively removed from the equation by being forced out .

Full credit to the US, this was the country which finally accepted that something really did have to be done, got off their backside and made it happen - an example of disinterested and moral leadership that they can be really proud of. Once they accepted the need for leadership, they acted decisvely and effectively to interdict the Serbs and repeated the lesson in Kosovo a while later.

So, in the Balkans the failure to act was down to a general wish to avoid being involved from all parties, with the UK government the most pusillanimous, and with the UN hamstrung by the reluctance of key players to take a lead, the emotional attachment to old alliances (Germany/Croatia v UK/Russia/Serbia), doubt over whether intervention was valid (was this a civil war, in which case intervention was not permitted unless genocide was being attempted?) and the most disgraceful leader the UN has ever had.

Ironically 'old' Europe - Germany & France - that are now condemned as cowardly, were the most willing to get up and do something....
 
bigfatron said:
There a few things here that I disagree with...
Ironically 'old' Europe - Germany & France - that are now condemned as cowardly, were the most willing to get up and do something....
And they did. It's not really public knowledge because you won't claim it on TV, but in former Youglosiava, snipers used to kill civilians crossing the streets. I can tell you that those snipers didn't all come back home, as they were actively hunt by special forces, but covertly.
 
Why would any country be ashamed to announce that they hunted down bastards sniping civilizans, Steph?

Out of modesty?
 
Yes, it is really a shame that blue helmets had not the authority to do so. :( If you must do the right thing in secrecy, something is utterly wrong.
 
IIRC the Blue helmets in Bosnia had a "robust" mandate, meaning they could shoot if an agressor attacks them or the people they protected. In Srebrenica it went totally wrong. Nevertheless the hunting of snipers could be such an action of a robust mandate. Nevertheless this action would have lead to diplomatic trouble by especially Russia. Old relations...

Adler
 
I am not very impressed by the blue helmets there, to be honest. Many soldiers serving there felt that their hand were tied behind their backs, this seems to have been very common.

I think it was a test of european unity in solving a conflict with deep roots in the past. Europe failed. We needed the help of the Americans to take care of that mess.

Maybe that seeing how others did better where oneself failed is another reason for the increasing popularity of anti-americanism. No wonder that stupid Michael Moore is so popular in Germany. This is probably not because of his agenda, but he became a symbol of anti-americanism.

I think one can criticize Bush with good enough arguments without resorting to selected and biased facts and emotionalization. These style was once called Propaganda, Goebbels and Moore have something in common in this case.
 
should germans stay quiet if they think Bush is not acting right just cos of ww2?

Everybody should think twice before blaming others but not cos of where they live in
 
Benderino said:
Oh, no problem :)

I am still a little puzzled. So Bush and Sharon were put on the list, or not? And if so, were those other men that I mentioned put on as well? I'm sorry if I'm annoying you, I'm just curious. ;)
It works like in the US, anyone could accuse anyone to break the law. However, that's not enough to convict anyone. There's a thing called a trial in between.

About Bush and Sharon, which have been named among tons of other names, no investigation has been conducted against them. As you can see, it didn't really go far... but the simple risk it could happen has been enough for Washington to force Brussels to get rid of a law which was our last hope to make feel to world's dictators that they are not above the Human Rights. :(

The day it happened was a really sad day for the world.
 
Benderino said:
You're just being overly cynical.

And you have fallen prey to misguided idealism.

Benderino said:
This isn't a Hobbesian dreamworld we live in.

Tell that to PNAC, and your government.

Benderino said:
We do have partners, friends, and allies on this planet. I don't intend on losing them.

I hate to break this to you: But you are not the president.
 
Benderino said:
I was referring to Europe, Canada, Japan, S. Korea, Israel, Turkey, etc. and the ones you mentioned, actually. I was speaking on a greater coalition than Bush's "coalition of the willing". I'm speaking of the coalition of democratic, modern countries that was made over 50 years ago to bring this planet into a new age of prosperity.

You don't treat those nations as friends, but rather aquaintances of convenience.

As a Canadian, if Americans treat me as an aquaintance of convenience, then I know longer consider them friends, but rather just aquaintances of convenience.

And a thing about that, is what happens when it is no longer convenient. You don't seem to understand how much damage your government has done to your friendship of other peoples. I don't suggest you are a Bush supporter, but was just pointing out that you cannot automatically assume the relationship hasn't changed after the administration in charge (as well as the entire American media beaming all over the world), basically says that the opinions of 80% of Canadians 88% of Spaniards.... and so on, do not count, and that America would act in spite of us.

Of course America falls more in my favour than most countries around the world, but for me (as well as most people not in the states), that opinion has dropped rather considerably.
 
Marla_Singer said:
It works like in the US, anyone could accuse anyone to break the law. However, that's not enough to convict anyone. There's a thing called a trial in between.

About Bush and Sharon, which have been named among tons of other names, no investigation has been conducted against them. As you can see, it didn't really go far... but the simple risk it could happen has been enough for Washington to force Brussels to get rid of a law which was our last hope to make feel to world's dictators that they are not above the Human Rights. :(

The day it happened was a really sad day for the world.

I agree then.
 
CurtSibling said:
And you have fallen prey to misguided idealism.

I'll take that.

Tell that to PNAC, and your government.

PNAC and my government? This administration has been around for only 4 years, and that'll be the end of it. I don't think you should use these years to exemplify our best foreign policy. Next year, PNAC will be but a whisper in the wind.

I hate to break this to you: But you are not the president.

It doesn't matter, I speak for most of my fellow Americans. In this country, the president can only serve a maximum of two terms. He does not set the terms for our foreign policy for decades to come. He does not represent me, or most of my countrymen at this point.
 
Sobieski II said:
You don't treat those nations as friends, but rather aquaintances of convenience.

I don't? What do you mean? I do love those nations. Does my current president? Probably not all of them...but then again, I didn't vote for him ;)


As a Canadian, if Americans treat me as an aquaintance of convenience, then I know longer consider them friends, but rather just aquaintances of convenience.

Makes sense to me. But I assure you, we want international partners, and this four year absence of that want means nothing. As I wrote to Curt, Bush is just one man, not all 280 million of us.
 
CurtSibling said:
I hate to see a Texan beg, so I will have a rethink about the initial statement.

:D
:lol: :crazyeye:
Just for the record, I am just living in Texas (and have been for a decade)--I do not consider myself a Texan. Of course, some may not see the difference, but to those who know what a true Texan is like, it is quite understandable. :p
 
Back
Top Bottom