Wide vs Tall--Balance?

I think probably there's some confused ideas going on here.

...don't want to quote the whole post because it's massive

Yes, exactly. It is a fair point that not every city will have the resources or the terrain to grow "tall", which is fine, that happened a fair bit in past Civ games where a city would get founded for various reasons but you knew it'd never become a powerhouse. Sometimes you'd just end up with a "tall" core of around a half-dozen, give or take, cities, with a larger number of satellite cities. I did not mean to imply that every city would end up "tall", just that you'd generally want to grow and improve a city as much as was possible (or reasonable).

I'll just agree on the point that the dichotomy is something that probably shouldn't exist in Civ.
 
Both are viable though.

Less viable.

The choice between those is less meaningful than with Tradition in most cases compared to say swapping between the Civics cards in Civ6.
And really, outside of screwball settings like Tiny Duel that clearly skew towards Honor, standard baseline
settings which are the ones that matter reinforce the overcentralization of Tradition.
The game mechanics heavily back this up.
 
Now you're just being insulting. World Wonders are nice and all but they're not nearly enough to equate to initial land grab. Particularly because a player who plays both "tall and wide" is going to do a much better job at grabbing wonders once their empire is rolling.
I didn't mean to be insulting, but i see how that paragraph can be read as an insult. It was worded overly provocative and aggressive, and I am sorry for that - I should have controlled my words better. What I meant to say is that I thought that you were focusing way too much on this one type of "how the game should be" but didn't seem to acknowledge that there are other ways of "how the game COULD be" (without it being automatically inferior), because you didn't really make a counter-argument to what I said at first, instead just dismissed it as "that goes against what I know".

Because "tall and wide" isn't just one strategy. There are many paths to victory. We have different victory conditions, right? The problem with enforcing tall versus wide is that's mostly about restrictions, it's far more about the things you don't do rather than the things you do. It's a set of artificial limitations more than it is a real set of strategies.
Yes, like I already said in other posts: I'm not talking about wide vs. tall as in "You decide at the beginning of the game what you want to do", I'm talking about wide vs tale as a set of decisions.

The most obvious example:
If there's space for a city and I am able to expand, but I could also build, for example, a wonder, then I want both of these choices to be valid ones. Not that expanding is automatically the right thing just because border friction is heralded as this thing that must be pushed over everything else.

I'm surprised that that's such a controversial point, but I guess the fact that I'm heavily influenced by RTS may just get me to a very different point of view that other people.
 
What I meant to say is that I thought that you were focusing way too much on this one type of "how the game should be" but didn't seem to acknowledge that there are other ways of "how the game COULD be" (without it being automatically inferior), because you didn't really make a counter-argument to what I said at first, instead just dismissed it as "that goes against what I know".

It's not so much "goes against what I know" as I don't think Wonder-spamming is a particular interesting strategy. It ignores too much of what Civ is about--anytime you focus too much on one thing, it's an issue, because it implies that other parts of the game aren't all that important. With that said:

If there's space for a city and I am able to expand, but I could also build, for example, a wonder, then I want both of these choices to be valid ones. Not that expanding is automatically the right thing just because border friction is heralded as this thing that must be pushed over everything else.

That's a single decision point, not an overall strategy. And it's one I can agree with--to an extent. Rather than say they should both be valid decisions, I'd say they both have the possibility to be valid decisions, but there are many factors to consider in that equation: can I get the land later, how high-quality is the land, who else might claim the land, could I still get the wonder if I built a settler first, etc.

There's way too much going on there for the developers of the game to try and make the options "equal". Instead, what they should be doing is making both options beneficial, and leaving it to the player to evaluate which would be a better play, given the specific situation.

You want the players to always want all the things, because that's what creates the true tension--that's why I say "more land should always be better", because if it isn't, then the players don't want it, and you've removed a source of tension. By the same token, having more infrastructure, improvements, units, etc. is generally always better too, so the player wants more of that. But land tends to create more tension, because it really is a race more often than an infrastructure or unit build is.

I also happen to think that this fits in more with Civ VI's overall design philosophy. One developer comment from an early video is that "the land is the star", and I feel if land is powerful, then it's a good idea to have the player always want more of it, because there's challenge in that. I don't feel like the land could ever be the star of the game if one is content to sit back and let others claim high-quality land that's just on your borders.
 
I never got why tall vs wide should be balanced. If having 4 cities is just as viable as having 8 cities then why would you build more than 4 cities? Wide (Or, realistically, wide empire + tall cities) SHOULD be better. If you can build and maintain 8 good cities then you SHOULD absolutely be in a better position than somebody who can only build and maintain 4. If they've got a problem with that then they're free to try and take some of your nice cities. ;)
 
It's not so much "goes against what I know" as I don't think Wonder-spamming is a particular interesting strategy. It ignores too much of what Civ is about--anytime you focus too much on one thing, it's an issue, because it implies that other parts of the game aren't all that important.
But that's once again Civ V tall. The idea is not that you sit around building wonders, the idea is that, if you expand slower, it's easier to weave in more wonders, and thus your empire that is lagging behind in Cities a bit can keep up with another empire.

That does of course require wonders to be designed in a way that they support exactly that, and as I said in a previous post somewhere, I think it would actually be great if they made wonders into something that is more directly competitive than randomly losing the wonder race.

An example for such a mechanic:
Have a "marketplace of ideas", where you can buy boosts for certain wonders that have not yet been built but are or will be unlocked soon by at least one player.

Wonders cannot be built until at least one player has bought a card associated with the wonder, and then all players who have unlocked the tech can construct it, thereby the victory race is officially started. Maybe even add a somewhat randomized progress-timer. Losing out on too many wonders would crash your empire's ability to more forward as much as having half a dozen cities conquered by a neighbor.
(Again, that was just a quick example.)

That's a single decision point, not an overall strategy. And it's one I can agree with--to an extent. Rather than say they should both be valid decisions, I'd say they both have the possibility to be valid decisions, but there are many factors to consider in that equation: can I get the land later, how high-quality is the land, who else might claim the land, could I still get the wonder if I built a settler first, etc.
Yes, it's a single decision. What I'm saying is that the game should be full of those little decisions of tall vs wide. The way I'd want it to play out is that, if during the game the stars align in a way that you can get a lot of bonuses that grow your cities, then your empire should be a lot taller in the end, while if you make decisions that boost your empire's capacity to be productive with many cities, then your empire should end up as a sprawling landscape of cities. Both should not go hand in hand, you should be able to mix and mash, but going wide should not inherently boost your capacity to go tall as well.

Beyond Earth did that exactly "wrong" - every city meant you have more trade routes, more trade routes mean that not only your other cities get more direct trade route yields, but it also meant that the trade routes benefited from each other, which just makes it that in order to grow tall you HAVE to go wide. That's the extreme version of what I want to prevent.

There's way too much going on there for the developers of the game to try and make the options "equal". Instead, what they should be doing is making both options beneficial, and leaving it to the player to evaluate which would be a better play, given the specific situation.

You want the players to always want all the things, because that's what creates the true tension--that's why I say "more land should always be better", because if it isn't, then the players don't want it, and you've removed a source of tension.
Yeah, again... that's true as long as land is the only form of tension. Is does not have to be, that's what I'm saying. The strength of taller empires must simply also come from mechanics that are competitive in nature for this to work, and what you end up is even more tension, because not only do you want to have more land, but you now ALSO really want to win the wonder races, maybe also want to take as much out of the global economy as possible, want to have the best academic circles, etc.

That's again competitive mechanics that would just need to be created. I realize they don't exist yet, but just thinking about the possibilities that are untapped until now makes this whole "More land, more land!"-gameplay seem very simplistic to me.
 
I think we're getting off-track. Wide vs. tall is a dichotomy that the developers started talking about in Civilization V, but you seem to be using those same terms for a whole different argument entirely (you could at least use different terms, you know). I mean, you're still missing a few points--I said remove "a source of tension", not "remove all tension", but I would agree that there should be lots of interesting decision points sprinkled throughout the game, and yes, some of them are inevitably going to be possibly delaying expansion for a bit to receive some other benefit.

But let me add this much: land is a means to an end. It is hardly simplistic, as it's less about owning the land and more about what to do with the land once you own it. You just have to own it before you can do anything with it.
 
I never got why tall vs wide should be balanced. If having 4 cities is just as viable as having 8 cities then why would you build more than 4 cities? Wide (Or, realistically, wide empire + tall cities) SHOULD be better. If you can build and maintain 8 good cities then you SHOULD absolutely be in a better position than somebody who can only build and maintain 4. If they've got a problem with that then they're free to try and take some of your nice cities. ;)
8 cities already has a major bonus in production. Thats true for civ5 for example. If you put hapiness issues aside, a 8 city empires always has way more production. Its very easy for example to win the international games on a 8 city empire on deity. A lot less so on a 4 cities empire.

Then when it comes to science and culture it is a time issue. The game is over fast enough for wide empires to not have time to bury down smaller taller empires. Add 50 turns to your average civ5 game and the balance is pulled the other way.

Now the real question is how the balance should be. My point of view is that you should indeed try to expand. There is no reason why you should be allowed to ignore military and still get the best result.
However such a view point has to be balanced. A wide empires should not scale perfectly. It should come with marginal advantages and diminishing returns. Otherwise the game will lose in the interest you can have for the mid and late game. If small empires do not have the means to catch up because the gap is too big then the game is over by the middle ages. It makes both sp and mp boring unless you allow the ai to also be land hungry so that the end game is a fight between a couple land grabbers. Im not sure the civ community is ready for something like that though.

To sum up, you should be allowed to expand. Youll already get more production out of it for warfare. I am not convinced it should also give you an easy lead in science and culture.

Another way is to allow small empires to perform but be at a higher risk of losing wars. This would be my prefered balance but I can already see the mountains of whines coming from the AI making players lose by eating them quickly.
 
Quickest Civ5 BNW deity science win had 11 cities (vadalez, t193). Was balance that bad?
 
They seem to try but im not seeing much giving you the option to focus on a small sized empire. It requires some way to benefit or create super cities the other strategy doesnt have access to. Like the tradition tree and internal routes being limited.

Without means to do so theres no interest. A bit like BE it would evolve into a REX up to 6 or 7 cities (if we ignore the trade route spam making ics available) then buildup strategy. Especially in a game allowing a 50% settler bonus early it sounds like REX will be how we ll spend the first 70turns then switch out of it and build this up.

Maybe there is something with amenities there but theres also housing that stops your vertical progression. Maybe barbs or ai agression will slow us down too.

You need quite a bit of military (or a favorable location) to defend 6 or 7 cities. Not as much the cities themselves, but improvements and districts will be vulnerable to pillaging by barbs and the AI now that cities don't get an attack until they have walls.

And, although we haven't seen all the details yet, cities are not going to grow much early on without fresh water, which significantly limits the spots where you can build them compared to Civ5.
 
Wide vs. tall is a dichotomy that the developers started talking about in Civilization V, but you seem to be using those same terms for a whole different argument entirely (you could at least use different terms, you know)
That's a pretty bold claim. Tall vs. wide is a dichotomy that has existed in games for a long time and was certainly not "invented" by Firaxis. It is true that Civ 5 was the first game to push it that far in terms of 4X gameplay, but that's why I've been saying that I do not mean the same thing that you mean.

In fact, I've been saying that I'm not using "tall vs. wide" in the sense that it is used in Civ 5 since my very first post in this thread, have explained what I mean by "tall" and by "wide". I think I've done more than enough to explain what I'm saying, you've simply ignored my explanations.
 
One big thing about civilization V is that your policies can never be changed which force you into a path which you can not then leave. Civilization VI do not have that static part which make a huge difference.
 
I'm going to bet a nickel that there will still be a science and/or culture tax for having more cities. To offset all the intangible advantages to have more territory.

Part of me likes the Wide vs. Tall decision added in Civ V and part of me dislikes it. I can never decide for sure, but I think it would all be simpler if it were gone :)
 
Denkt, those are not items that relate to the "Wide vs Tall" dichotomy. Those are simply mechanics that slow down wide growth. There's a difference.
 
Those mechanics are not to slow down wide as they effect tall as well. They are designed to slow down futher economical growth so that the civilizations behind on the economical development don't get even futher behind due to snowballing.

Without these a empire with twice the economical strength could invest twice as much in their economical development and thus get even futher ahead which make it even harder for those behind to catch up.
 
Those mechanics are not to slow down wide as they effect tall as well. They are designed to slow down futher economical growth so that the civilizations behind on the economical development don't get even futher behind due to snowballing.

Without these a empire with twice the economical strength could invest twice as much in their economical development and thus get even futher ahead which make it even harder for those behind to catch up.

and that's what we call ...

reality. :eek:
 
Those mechanics are not to slow down wide as they effect tall as well. They are designed to slow down futher economical growth so that the civilizations behind on the economical development don't get even futher behind due to snowballing.

Without these a empire with twice the economical strength could invest twice as much in their economical development and thus get even futher ahead which make it even harder for those behind to catch up.

Except in maybe the very late game, I doubt the small increase of production cost from the previous settler to the current one is enough to offset the economic gain of a new city over time. Especially since they announced the increase in cost, didn't they say 10%?

In Civ V, tall cities have a direct advantage over wide because the amount of culture and science produced per capita grows higher and higher with comparatively fewer cities. And those are stats that affect the entire empire, whereas production only affects one city.

In fact, to circumvent your argument, I could still have a very tall city, then build a second city purely for the construction of Settlers. Now my tall city is unaffected by any such production loss. I am effectively able to go Wide while maintaining any bonuses for being Tall.
 
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