Wildshape

[Grand Seeker]

Some time ago I had plans about a minimod moding a wildshape unit. However I did not have the time to implemented yet. I've hear rumors about an editor?
Is there a modmod out there which have included wildshapers?

I could make a wildshaper through a permanent summoning & kill caster mechanism. I included a bear (str 5, move 1) tiger (str 4 move 2) a hawk (rebase) and a shark (str 5 move 4). I could make special promotions which carried over into the summoned unit. However then the xp would automaticly drop to zero, which would make it way to easy to gain insane amount of promotions. Use wildshape, attack, new permanent promotion. I could use a hacky system where you only get a permanent promotions after gaining 3 non-permanent ones, but it would be far better to summon a unit with the same level, same XP and same promotions as the caster. The promotions are simple, the level and XP is harder.

How does the mirror spell (by svartlafar I think) create a duplicate with the same amount of xp as the caster? Maybe I can aslo look at the sidar hunter unit.

If this xp problem can be fixed, including unique promotions for this unit, would be easy and fun.

An other question, is it possible to restrict promotions to a given allignment?
Ie good could get celestial promotions, while evil could get fiendish?

That the wildshape ability HEALS the unit, I dont mind. Thats kind of fun.

 

[Marnok]

It would be possible in python to set the XP to the correct level, and to copy all promotions across to the new form. unit.selevel() sets the unit level, as used in the spell Mirror. Looking at this spell:

newUnit.setLevel(caster.getLevel())
newUnit.setExperience(caster.getExperience(), -1)

this looks to me like the method to give XP and a level, without triggering a whole levelup cycle granting cumulative promotions.

You have to be careful how the "death" of the old copy is handled so you don't trigger any death-related effects like cauldrons, marks etc.

 

[JDexter]

If implemented correctly (with no exploits, as Marnok mentioned, for example, with good balance of power, etc) this would really be fun.
Druids would be the first obvious choice, but also barbarian / doviello / tribe shamans and the like, or even an elven/animal hybrid being.

Of course too many units of the kind would be overdoing it, but three to four units spread across civs, races and/or religions would be amazing!

 

[Ahwaric]

I have added wildshape ability in Orbi 0.14, but I handle it quite differently.
Shapechange do not kill unit, it just changes the appereance (handled by racial promotion), also grants special promotion depending on the shape. Currently I have only two: wolf (+1 strength, + 1 movement) and bear (+2 strength).
This way the change keeps being useful in late game when normal bear strength is nothing. I also do not have problems with promotions and xp as it is still the same unit. The only downside is that the unit keeps it's original combat and unit type, but I think it is ok, as I do not really want all subdue promotions to work on shapechanged unit. They are not real animals after all.
Currently the only units that can shapechange are doviello shamans (wolf shape) and mages & archmages (wolf & bear shape) but I plan to expand it to more shapes and other units (druids for sure)

 

[Grand Seeker]

Thanks for the replies.

Ahwaric, your version is also fine. Simply using racial promotion has obviusly advantages.

However, I realy realy want my wildshaper to have the ability to
1) swim in the ocean, without being able to move on land while as shark.

2) rebase ability of the hawk.

Can this also be done with racial promotions?
---
I'm not so conerned about the power of the wildshaper in late game,
as one can make stronger promotions only available to the wildshaper
which gives different forms available...
---
-Small : defensive and ofensive retreat abiltiy, -1 strength.
-Stealty : give invisibility & hidden nationality
-Dire : +2 attack strength
-Celestial : Guardian promotion, +2 defence strength, remove disease availble.
-Fiendish : fire resistance, blitz, +1 attack strength, -1 defence strength
-Polar bear:
-Beast form
-Angel from
-Demon form
---
All this abilities could be done by spells which would allow you for example
to remove/re-add the hidden nationality at will. When you dont need the guardian promotion, you can switch to a regular form etc.

 

[TheJopa]

I always wanted Druids to turn into Bear to fight, wolf to raid, and Hawk to rebase across map.


I do think that demon and angel should be off, as that changes the soul itself. Shapes should be limited to 'alive' forms. Thats just my opinion, though.

 

[Rod]

This is a pretty nice idea ! Makes up for great concepts. Most obvious choice, turn into hawk, fly to the next base hundred of kilometers away to join the fight over there !

 

[Marnok]

Once the system is devised and tested, it could be adapted to other uses. Perhaps ability to shapeshift to elemental form(s), each purchased as a promotion with certain conditions, and similar. I might include something like this in my modmod as a "rare promotion" which can only be found through adventuring!

 

[arcticnightwolf]

It also should remove Polymorph debuff and cost shoud be some percents of total mana.
When as cat you should get rogue abilites, as Bear tank abilites and there also should be travell form (land & sky)...

edit: emm sorry, I didn't realize this is FfH not WoW

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

weresharks? that sounds really cool

 

[JDexter]

If the shapes / promotions are powerful (as in they benefit the unit much more than weakening it) maybe the caster should get a "fatigued" promotion after returning to the normal shape. This would prevent the hawk-form-rebase problem that I see.
It wouldn't be good if you could send three highly promoted druids to level 1 hunters to any point on the map and wreak havoc with very little risk. But the hawk form obviously has to stay.

Another trade of should maybe be that the shapechange takes 1-3 turns and last for a maximum time (maybe 5 turns, shouldn't be too short if it already takes long to get into it). Obviously the caster should always be able to return to his regular shape (as a spell ability).

To summarize the tradeoffs:
- powerful shapechanges
- delayed spell to start the change
- limit on the duration of the form
- fatigued promotion after the form is reverted

 

[Marnok]

Well, a delay before they can change back might be in order - a timed "monomorph" promotion, so you can't change form multiple times in a turn. I don't think it would be all that overpowered otherwise. There is always a drawback to being a hawk for a turn or two...

EDIT:

also we need a linked promo pair - a man who can change into a wolf, and a lady who can change into a hawk, but they are never both human at the same time...

 

[jimi12]

i like the idea but i think being able to rebase as a hawk would be too powerful. It would be the same as The Nexus for that unit. I think a wolf that has good movement and medium strength, a bear with low movement and high strength, and maybe a tree form with no movement and high defense str, and a water form.

 

[Ahwaric]

Simply using racial promotion has obviusly advantages.

However, I realy realy want my wildshaper to have the ability to
1) swim in the ocean, without being able to move on land while as shark.

2) rebase ability of the hawk.

Can this also be done with racial promotions?

I do not think so. However, while working on fort commanders I found a xml tag that will probably make your life easier.
<ConvertUnitType> allows you to change unit to another type via spell, while retaining xp & promotions of the original.
I am thinking of using it in the future, but I must first decide how to solve the problem of getting back to original form, i.e. how to restirct druid to be able to become druid again, and druid only. It would require special promotions for every unit type that can shapeshift.

I think that changing to hawk and rebasing is too powerfull. And unless you remove spellcasting ability from the unit (remove channeling?) you can end with archmage hawk, that can be transported by beastmaster (and invulnerable, as loaded units can't be attacked). A bit broken if you ask me.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Mirror uses python, but there was an xml tag created for the Create Puppet spell that copies all the caster's promotions (exclusing equipment) to the summoned unit. I'm not sure if it passes on xml or levels though.


Why would you summon a unit and kill the caster instead of just using the <ConvertUnitType> tag, like is used in the Drown or Lichdom spells? That would pass on all promotions, xp, levels, and religion.



Tying promotions to alignment in normal FfH is not possible unless the promotions are granted though spells that use python. In FF, however, is is very easy to add such prereqs.

 

[Grand Seeker]

I'll have a look at lichdom. Sounds like it would do the trick easiest. I dont want to go into python, and ConvertUnitType sounds a lot easier. And I geuss it can do what I want. Just a questions, the summon&kill had a few nice touches as healing the unit. Will ConvertUnitTyp keep 'deseasesd, poisoned damage etc?' Being able to heal is a nice perk to shapeshifting.

I was first thinking of a pure shapeshifter where shapeshifting was the only ability.
While in hawk-form it could not do much good except rebasing. Adding other spells to the mix would be a lot more difficult to balance.

The reason I want rebasing is that it would be nasty nice and fun to have a unit which can be what you want, where you want. But never best in any single function.

Also, its probably a lot easier to make a 'shapeshifter promotion' which allows ALL shapeshifter spells regardless of what form it is in. So that you could shapeshift
as bear even if you are in bearform allready. Who (except the AI) would want to do something like that anyway? (ok I can think of a few reasons)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

By default it would keep those promotions, but you could make the spells remove them if you like. I believe that there is a tag that would let you heal the unit too, but I'm not at my computer and so cannot check.


By default, a spell that uses ConvertUnitType will not be available to a unit of that type. Liches cannot keep turning into Liches. However, I believe that added other effects like removing diseased or poisoned or healing the unit would mean a bear could still turn into a bear.