Will it be possible to play TSL (True Starting Locations) in Civ 7?

[Siptah]

Though I'm very intrigued by some of the gameplay possibilities opened up by civ switching, I'm right there with you in being sorry to lose the what-if scenarios.

There are some other what-ifs added. What if the Roman Empire never fell, turned into a colonizing Spanish empire? What if the Maurya conquered China and merged into Ming Chinese? What if the Abbasids founded America? Granted, these are further away from what many are used to. Yet, especially if there is something like Gedemon's mod for Humankind in which territories unlock civs, I also see a lot of potential even for TSL to create great story.

 

[Krikkit1]

Appreciate the first statement. You're right about my comment regarding recreating history, it's not exactly what happens in a TSL game.

For me, and perhaps others, the fun is a kind of what-if. For example, the Roman empire didn't fall and instead is competing with the Aztecs to colonize lands east of the Mississippi (what I'm doing right now). My next game next likely will be if the Māoris settled Australia and then moved north. Will they be able to sustain an empire against India and China?

All of that goes away with forced civ switching, for no reason that I can discern.

You could still have that if they let you change the names (since the Ai will keep the right name for the age it is in)

 

[I was NC]

There are some other what-ifs added.

There are a few specific possibilities, but I doubt there are enough to work out consistently. Being potentially possible in some cases doesn't sufficiently offset an unnecessary mandate.

You could still have that if they let you change the names (since the Ai will keep the right name for the age it is in)

I don't follow what this means...?

 

[Krikkit1]

There are a few specific possibilities, but I doubt there are enough to work out consistently. Being potentially possible in some cases doesn't sufficiently offset an unnecessary mandate.


I don't follow what this means...?

If the AI has the right Ancient Era TSL, its civ in the next 2 Eras will have the right name for a civ in that time and place (the AI default historical options don’t move it around too much)

So if you could keep your Roman NAME, (even if you had Norman or Mongol Uniques in the second Age) you could be fighting the Aztec for control of the Mississippi (assuming the Maya->Aztec were able to crush any Ancient Era civs in Northern America)

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

It would be helpful to me as a non-TSL player if someone would state what they want in a TSL game. Also what makes the issues with civ-switching and map expansion different then with random maps?

I'm betting if civ 7 lasts 8 years like 6 someone will figure out how to have civs switch appropriately based on where they expand to.

 

[I was NC]

It would be helpful to me as a non-TSL player if someone would state what they want in a TSL game. Also what makes the issues with civ-switching and map expansion different then with random maps?

I attempted to explain it earlier (quote below). The idea is you build a civ which actually existed in it's geography and see what happens. An example from V would be if the Celts became a true nation on the British Isles and then settled Northern and Western Europe. Another would be the Iroquois industrializing before others and being the colonizers. Playing along those lines is particularly fun if you have a personal connection to the civ.

For me, and perhaps others, the fun is a kind of what-if. For example, the Roman empire didn't fall and instead is competing with the Aztecs to colonize lands east of the Mississippi (what I'm doing right now). My next game next likely will be if the Māoris settled Australia and then moved north. Will they be able to sustain an empire against India and China?

If the AI has the right Ancient Era TSL, its civ in the next 2 Eras will have the right name for a civ in that time and place (the AI default historical options don’t move it around too much)

So if you could keep your Roman NAME, (even if you had Norman or Mongol Uniques in the second Age) you could be fighting the Aztec for control of the Mississippi (assuming the Maya->Aztec were able to crush any Ancient Era civs in Northern America)

So, in this example, Genghis Khan rules the Roman empire starting in the second age? Guess that could be less bad than some other possibilities, but isn't something I'd be in a hurry to buy.

 

[Zaarin]

An example from V would be if the Celts became a true nation on the British Isles and then settled Northern and Western Europe.

As a historical aside, that's not a what-if. (Of course, the Celts originated in Central Europe and their culture diffused in all directions, including to the British Isles, but the Continental Celts were absorbed by other cultures. The Bretons are a back-migration, like the Siberian Yupiks.)

 

[I was NC]

the Continental Celts were absorbed by other cultures

True, but what if that hadn't happened? Instead they created a civ that held off the Romans, resisted the Vikings, and stood the test of time?

Wonder if this thread will create some new TSL players.

 

[Zaarin]

True, but what if that hadn't happened?

Like I said, just a historical aside that the Brythons did recolonize France in our own timeline.

 

[ColtSeavers]

It would be helpful to me as a non-TSL player if someone would state what they want in a TSL game. Also what makes the issues with civ-switching and map expansion different then with random maps?

I'm betting if civ 7 lasts 8 years like 6 someone will figure out how to have civs switch appropriately based on where they expand to.

Well, for me the criteria are like this:
1.) The Civ has to start where it originally (4000 BC) belongs (quiet obvious, I guess )
2.) Secondly, the Civs have to develop in a historical comprensible way, so e.g. Rome -> Franks/ Holy Roman Empire -> France/ Germany/ Italians (that should also work out, based on Civ 7's AI selection specifications)
3.) I want to play all 3! ages, I don't want to be limited to a certain age.
4.) I need an option, where I can select my opponents, including potential modern day Civs. So if I want to play against American in the Modern age, I have to be able to select a Civ for the Antiquity Age, who has a historical path set up to become America (not sure whether this could get problematic for political reasons, see my opening post).
5.) I'd like to play also maps like Europe, which are predominantly land based. So they would have to find a way, that the Exploration Age criteria are in this case fulfilled as well (making the Mediterranean Sea an ocean for instance).

 

[pokiehl]

I’m not sure how TSL will work out, but I do feel strongly that this sort of convention shouldn’t hold the series back from innovating.

 

[ColtSeavers]

I’m not sure how TSL will work out, but I do feel strongly that this sort of convention shouldn’t hold the series back from innovating.

Well, that's easy for you to say, since you apparently don't enjoy playing TSL maps after all. For other players (including myself), having to give up TSL gameplay is a pretty huge sacrifice. A significant amount of the games I played where TSL for sure!

 

[I was NC]

Well, that's easy for you to say, since you apparently don't enjoy playing TSL maps after all. For other players (including myself), having to give up TSL gameplay is a pretty huge sacrifice. A significant amount of the games I played where TSL for sure!

Absolutely. Plus, the real problem is not this innovation but making it mandatory. All the developers have to do is make switching optional. That's it.

 

[Zaarin]

Absolutely. Plus, the real problem is not this innovation but making it mandatory. All the developers have to do is make switching optional. That's it.

It's the core system of the game, though. It would be like making districts optional in Civ6. So it's really not as simple as "making it optional" when everything is built around it. That being said, once modding tools are available, I wouldn't be surprised to see modders find a way to make non-switching viable.

 

[chaosprophet]

Absolutely. Plus, the real problem is not this innovation but making it mandatory. All the developers have to do is make switching optional. That's it.

That is a main feature of this new game, the game is built around it. civilizations bonuses are made and balanced based on the ages they're on.

It would be like saying, Civ 6 should have the option to not have districts, so you play with all buildings on the city center or can't make any of the buildings that aren't there. Both options that would throw the game balance completely astray, or would at least need a total change of balance for people who picked the "mode".

PS: While I was writing the reply Zaarin said pretty much the same just before me. XD

 

[Red Adept]

Whether it was optional or by default is not really relevant concerning the question, how many players acctually want to play/ are playing TSL maps.

If I want to play historically accurate positions in the real world, I'm playing Crusader Kings, not Civilization. I play Civ to play on random maps because at this scale most modern nations would be too small to fit all the cities in.

 

[ColtSeavers]

If I want to play historically accurate positions in the real world, I'm playing Crusader Kings, not Civilization. I play Civ to play on random maps because at this scale most modern nations would be too small to fit all the cities in.

Sure, if you want to play with random maps only, that's perfectly fine. I just also want to have the option to play TSL games, like I had in all previous Civ titels! That's it!

 

[Gedemon]

I attempted to explain it earlier (quote below). The idea is you build a civ which actually existed in it's geography and see what happens. An example from V would be if the Celts became a true nation on the British Isles and then settled Northern and Western Europe. Another would be the Iroquois industrializing before others and being the colonizers. Playing along those lines is particularly fun if you have a personal connection to the civ.

but isn't that the same issue people are afraid of on random maps ?

"what if this or that civ hadn't fallen/changed?"

I mean same issue but reported on TSL map, but IMO not something preventing TSL itself.

 

[Red Adept]

It's the core system of the game, though. It would be like making districts optional in Civ6. So it's really not as simple as "making it optional" when everything is built around it. That being said, once modding tools are available, I wouldn't be surprised to see modders find a way to make non-switching viable.

We're still in the dark as to how the switching happens... what I'd like to see is that one of the options for switching is your current civ, but in a different form. Say as Rome one of the options is to play as Venice in the Exploration Age and then Italy in the Modern Era. Something like this would go a long way to placate those that hate the concept of civ switching.

Of course, each of these new Civs would have their own set of bennys and disads. But this would allow for China (Zhou) - China (Ming) - China (Republic) and Celt-England-UK, switching by name and abilities only, but geographically having the same area.

I truly believe that switching is necessary going forward to allow the most creativity in development and play. There may not be a way to avoid switching, but as you say, with modding, you can make the appropriate civs per era available. Who would want to play a Civ with ancient era abilities in the modern era anyway?

 

[Red Adept]

Sure, if you want to play with random maps only, that's perfectly fine. I just also want to have the option to play TSL games, like I had in all previous Civ titels! That's it!

Face it, they're not going to have all civs available in the Ancient era. I seriously doubt that the game when it rolls out is going to have 80 civs and allow people to start all over the globe. How I anticipate it is you may get a TSL map, but once you pick YOUR civ, they'll pick civs appropriate enough for the size of the map they allow around you and that's your game for a TSL game. As the world expands, then more civs will be chosen from for that era... and so on. We honestly know next to nothing about how the game's going to play and whether a "Classic Civ TSL map game" will be possible.

I have faith in the developers that they'll give us something that's similar enough to what we've had before to keep the Civilization name going.