Windmill, watermill, workshop, lumbermill

My General Rules:

Riverside Plains tiles get Watermills; non-river Plains tiles get Workshops. Windmills will often replace Mines in Commerce Cities once they become food neutral, if it allows me convert Farms to Cottages. I used to build more Lumbermills, but not so much lately.
 
I don't build watermills nor workshops much since buying BtS, as I prefer corps + cottages + US over SP and whatever combination you want to use. I never chop forests in production cities, as I save them for lumbermills. In commerce cities they get removed in favor of cottages. Late game, I replace all mines with windmills (Yes, I know). Windmills are 1F/1P/4C with electricity and environmentalism. Mines are 0F/3P/0C with railroad plus a small chance of discovering a resource. So for the sacrifice of 2P and a small chance at discovering a resource, you get 1F and 4C plus 1/2 of a specialist. That seems like a no brain decision to me, though I'm sure people will disagree.
 
I generally stick to mines, farms, and cottages, but windmills can turn low food, non-commerce cities into decent production cities. In the mid-to-late game, I don't like to build cottage cities, as they take too long to develop. So if I capture a poorly developed AI city, I'll watermill the rivers, workshop the plains, and farm enough grassland to turn the city into a good production city.

A large part of the issue also depends upon the terrain. If you're in typical terrain, let's say with a river, some grassland, and a few hills, you can do quite nicely with farms, cottages, and mines creating a decent commerce or production city. But if you are in a jungle region, there are typically not many hills available for production. So your only option in those cities is to build watermills on rivers and workshops on the other tiles if you want to get any production out of those cities.
 
plains lumbermill = grass hill mine. If you don't need the chop, the plain tile underneath it kind of sucks until then anyway. Mill that sucker up for more hammers.
 
TMIT is right about Mills. Plus you still get that 0.5 :health: of the forests that are so useful and you get the railroad :hammers: bonus of the mines to boot making them healthy grass mines.

As for cottages vs workshops/mines etc
Spoiler :

Hammer economy is basically the reason for building workshops and can be run with either corps or SP. A Hammer economy is not as strong as a fully developed CE on paper but the reality is that HE is far more flexible and you still build a lot of cottages in the older cities and usually run FS. The old cities are the only ones that are really going to have full cottages anyway and so are producing their commerce which is there purpose. Yes You lose the :hammers: from US but they will be replaced by the corps anyway and are not most needed in commerce cities.

So therefore any comparisons to the loss of :commerce: vs the small :food: or :hammers: gain for not building towns is a ridiculous argument. First off you don;t build towns you develop them. Only the older cities can have the time to develop several towns and still build their necessary buildings. New cities may need those citizen turns to bring in hammers and build all the buildings needed to function.

Newly conquered/later built cities would far better serve your economy maximizing hammer and food production in order to build those buildings and start making units and running specialists. Workshops are fantastic when boosted by civics/techs and in cities that won't have time to develop cottages. If you focus on cottages on such cities they will take forever to grow and to build those buildings you'll need to sink a couple thousand :gold: that could've been used for some better purpose than building markets in a city with low :commerce: for another 150 turns.





If your running Envrio then Windmills are great and aren't bad otherwise for feeding more whatever

Edit: put cottages instead of workshops. CHanged that now
 
Towns are far stronger than even the fully boosted workshop, if you get all the multipliers in place and grow them.

However, towns require either supporting cities or two sets of multipliers to perform optimally. Workshops need one, and workshop cities set up a LOT faster. Granary, forge, factory, power. Now it can build anything you need. Assuming a size 10 city with enough :)/:health:, it will take new cottages quite a long time to break even against SP workshops even with the multipliers in place. Once factoring in multiplier build times, it takes even longer.

However, cottages are viable improvements much sooner in the game, so which tile improvement you select depends on a lot of factors indeed.
 
@mboettcher

Agreed, one common fallacy imo is the comparison between the +4h workshop and the +7c + 1h Kremlin assisted town. Obviously this town needs more prerequisites, a WW and time to develop, but that aside it also requires FS. FS substitutes Bureaucracy, and you need MANY FS towns in cities with all the commerce multipliers to match a good Bureaucracy capital with Oxford + Academy, never mind beat it. Workshop spam outside the capital doesn't have to sacrifice Bureaucracy to reach its potential. Often times the more realistic comparison between the town and the workshop is +4h versus +5c +1h without Kremlin.
 
Remember that workshops only lock you into caste system which isn't too difficult to counter in terms of happiness. Towns lock you into US and FS. That means you can't run your choice of Bureaucracy, Feudalism, Nationalism, Police state and HR making emergency flexibility an issue. You can't draft armies for surges with out a huge economic penalty. Plus there is little food for regrowth.

Kremlin is nice but you need hammers to build it. And also what about all the other WW's of the era that are exceptionally powerful? you need a 2-3 high productive cities at least to build them.

All I'm saying is that an economy (and therefore an 'improvements' policy) that is based solely on maximizing the value of commerce isn't nearly as effective as one that tries to maximize the value of the combination of commerce, hammers and food. In trying to work all three you automatically grant yourself more civics flexibility because you're not pinning yourself down into one method of production.

Therefore Workshops, lumbermills, watermills and windmills are all important to build in quantity
 
As a huge advocate of simplifying my economy by breaking one kind of improvement, I'd like to point out that this depends heavily on empire size. Imo, the important question many people seem to overlook is 'Am I big enough to go for an empire-wide optimisation or should I simply go for something that allows me to fine-tune each city?'

Something like total cottage spam is hideously effective for generic cities... but if we are small enough that getting the most out of our capital/national wonder cities is the top priority, it's less attractive.
In addition to Free Speech vs. Bureuacracy, there is also the problem of not being able to run Representation... settling a lot of great specialists is another strong way to give a compact empire staying power and losing the bonus beakers hurts a little. Free Specialists might also be a factor... Russia for example can have 5 of them in every city.

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The beauty of a combination like Representation/Caste System/State Property is that we don't need to make any extraordinary investments and can push hard for whatever we want in a given city.

Kremlin-assisted slaving/rushbuying might be more flexible and, in theory, more efficient but it's only good for producing mixed outputs; not so useful for pushing highly specialised cities over the top.
So that's only as attractive as it seems if our national wonder cities aren't doing all the heavy lifting anyway AND we want mixed outputs ('I want my economy cities to have good infrastructure too' rather than 'I'll avoid anything that's not strictly necessary and push for whatever I need to').

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Regarding individual improvements... I think windmills are slightly underappreciated. They get a considerable bonus very early - +1:food:+1:hammers:+1:gold: in the Renaissance is very very good.
They shine whenever we are trying to push a single improvement type over the top. Obvious under Environmentalism, but the same also applies for cottage/workshop spam because the über-improvements will be built on flatland and won't net any food.

Under State Property, Farm -> workshop and 2 mines -> windmills results in the same amount of production but nets some free commerce. For cottages, it's not as clear cut, but the hammers/commerce trade-off is quite impressive.
 
I usually go for nuts corping at the end, so state property is something I almost never run, thus workshop and watermill are rarely used. I usually have quite a few lumbermills in my core empire, of course the AI clearcuts everything so most captured cities tend to go commerce/hybrid as I have no efficient way to make them production cities other than mines wherever there is hills. I use windmills a fair bit - on marginal land always, and also once a commerce city is up and running with all buildings needed down it might well get converted to windmills from mines.
 
So you can always get sid's sushi and mining inc? And you wait until you've spread both of them to every city before you go to war? I can see why people who play at noble or lower would never build watermills.
However in higher level play watermills/lumbermills/workshops are very important. Sometimes you want to maximize hammer production as early as possible to get a lead on the AI in military units so you can win wars earlier and get that land earlier. Back when I was a noble/prince level player I probably cottage spammed and went US/FS in 90% of my games. Now I only do that when my situation calls for, maybe 20-30% of the time. You also forget that to get the most out of cottages you need to run US and FS. SP provides a reduced cost benefit that can make a huge difference for a large empire, a difference that might come close to free market. Then one can build watermills over their farms for a massive and very quick hammer boost, and can run food neutral workshops. Also beeing free from requiring US allows you to continue to run REP for beakers or HR for the happy cap boost or later on you can even run PS to completely eliminate war weariness (combined with a national wonder and a building of course). Thus for games where I expand a lot via war, the improvements in question are very useful. Lumbermills are also great. In production cities with flatland forests I can afford to leave most of them in place for the duration of the game, later turning them into lumbermills. These are great, providing a similar boost to hammers as workshops and also boosting health, allowing you to build factories and coal plants, for example.
 
So you can always get sid's sushi and mining inc? And you wait until you've spread both of them to every city before you go to war? I can see why people who play at noble or lower would never build watermills.
However in higher level play watermills/lumbermills/workshops are very important. Sometimes you want to maximize hammer production as early as possible to get a lead on the AI in military units so you can win wars earlier and get that land earlier. Back when I was a noble/prince level player I probably cottage spammed and went US/FS in 90% of my games. Now I only do that when my situation calls for, maybe 20-30% of the time. You also forget that to get the most out of cottages you need to run US and FS. SP provides a reduced cost benefit that can make a huge difference for a large empire, a difference that might come close to free market. Then one can build watermills over their farms for a massive and very quick hammer boost, and can run food neutral workshops. Also beeing free from requiring US allows you to continue to run REP for beakers or HR for the happy cap boost or later on you can even run PS to completely eliminate war weariness (combined with a national wonder and a building of course). Thus for games where I expand a lot via war, the improvements in question are very useful. Lumbermills are also great. In production cities with flatland forests I can afford to leave most of them in place for the duration of the game, later turning them into lumbermills. These are great, providing a similar boost to hammers as workshops and also boosting health, allowing you to build factories and coal plants, for example.

For a large empire, SP can't hold a candle to FM (ignoring setup time) if you have a remotely decent corps situation. The larger you are, the more resources you control (and they tend to grow in a non-linear fashion) and the greater bonus you get from the corporation. As far as being locked in US, not entirely.

Frankly, running a rep based science juggernaut loses far more output swapping out of rep and into PS than running cottages does swapping out of US into PS. The real locked civic is FS. For a large empire, your cap just doesn't do enough heavy lifting; even an all riverside cap with IW and Oxford eventually is dwarfed by other holdings. Nat is a bit harder to come by, drafting plummets in efficieny at AL and gets downright stupid at with Mech Inf; the espionage bonus just doesn't compete with higher raw :commerce:. In the long haul, FS will give you more, better units than Nat. Vassalage is a wild card, if you need it, you are stuck with it (no religion war), but also useless if you aren't headed off to fight.

The larger you get, the stronger running cottages and US/FS get.
 
If you are running a workshop-driven hammer economy across a large empire (e.g., Toku) then SP is very desirable imo.

Not to mention the tedium of spamming execs across a large empire.
 
@Mith

Switching out of Rep and into PS does cost you a lot more beaker wise than US into PS.

The only issue is if you are a rushbuy economy then your low production cottage cities aren't gonna do anything more than keep from imploding under PS in a war weariness crisis. You won't really be gaining any advantage.

If you are a hammer based economy you can gain a huge advantage in military production when you need it on top of not losing war weariness citizens. If you need this advantage you trade off research for this or often In my case I shut down research production in such phases to save gold, pump some EP (always help tons in late wars for riots) and pump some culture into some new cities before I switch back toa peaceful economy.

With US not only do you not have the option to trade up (except through the slider), you have to suffer whatever war weariness comes your way. Which can force a culture slider increase (a lot bigger deal for a US economy to lose money in culture slider as it costs more and you lose productivity)

As far as FS
Granted one would be less likely to shake this one up later but Nat drafting isn't weak post AL with a strong HE running sushi and Mining. Yeah you can probably pump out a lot of units with out a problem, especially with PS but in the event of needing a bunch of troops quick the regrowth rate for sushi is really high the larger the empire gets. Its also exceedingly effective in new cities that have been culturally converted (rather fast with sushi) so that a draft of 30-40 infantry over a few turns isn't much of a problem. Vassalage is more likely to be useful though for the support costs and bonus xp along with Theo and Pentagon can make 9xp units. Powerful army though I usually stay in FS.
 
With the addition of the levee watermills have lost a lot of their power if you ask me. Even with state property and all extra technologies and a levee a watermill will net in 4F/3H/3C.

I go the opposite way. With levees, watermills are better for production cities than plains workshops or grassland hills WITH rr.

Grassland watermills make no sense. That isn't an analysis of an efficient watermill. Riverside grassland tiles should be for cottages or farms. Watermills are the bomb on a riverside PLAINS tile. That will net you 2:food: 4:hammers:, 3 :commerce: also known as a self feeding grassland hill with RR and 3 bonus :commerce:. Ideal for a production city, not a commerce city. Commerce cities should (generally speaking) have cottages down on riverside tiles

If you are running a workshop-driven hammer economy across a large empire (e.g., Toku) then SP is very desirable imo.

Not to mention the tedium of spamming execs across a large empire.
I feel like corporations really shine in smaller empires when State Property makes no sense at all to run. It can be said that well operated corporations can run a huge empire in Free Market just as well, but corporations really do the less land mass empire better IMO.
 
Grassland watermills make no sense. That isn't an analysis of an efficient watermill. Riverside grassland tiles should be for cottages or farms. Watermills are the bomb on a riverside PLAINS tile. That will net you 2:food: 4:hammers:, 3 :commerce: also known as a self feeding grassland hill with RR and 3 bonus :commerce:. Ideal for a production city, not a commerce city. Commerce cities should (generally speaking) have cottages down on riverside tiles

Watermills might be necessary to max out the hammer output of the city they're improving, such as when you have to use them to cover other hammer tiles that are somewhat food-poor. Farms have a far lower net yield at that point, and of course cottages are a different route entirely.
 
Watermills might be necessary to max out the hammer output of the city they're improving, such as when you have to use them to cover other hammer tiles that are somewhat food-poor. Farms have a far lower net yield at that point, and of course cottages are a different route entirely.

Agreed. I was just talking about the analysis that I quoted. With biology, though, farms allow 2 more grassland hills or 2 more plains workshops. But that's all situational to the city's BFC. The major point I was making is that a plains watermill feeds itself, has as many hammers as a grassland hill with railroad and also provides 3 or 4 :commerce: (depending on FIN or not) which is really an awesome tile.
 
If you have sufficient food though and care only about hammers and not commerce (e.g., in an IW city) then a workshop spam is the way to go imo--esp if you can run Caste/SP.
 
True, though I'd take 3:commerce: in place of 1:hammers: for the city to support itself. It all depends on my situation. Late game space race? Yeah, gimme hammers!
 
Switching out of Rep and into PS does cost you a lot more beaker wise than US into PS.

The only issue is if you are a rushbuy economy then your low production cottage cities aren't gonna do anything more than keep from imploding under PS in a war weariness crisis. You won't really be gaining any advantage.

If you are a hammer based economy you can gain a huge advantage in military production when you need it on top of not losing war weariness citizens. If you need this advantage you trade off research for this or often In my case I shut down research production in such phases to save gold, pump some EP (always help tons in late wars for riots) and pump some culture into some new cities before I switch back toa peaceful economy.

With US not only do you not have the option to trade up (except through the slider), you have to suffer whatever war weariness comes your way. Which can force a culture slider increase (a lot bigger deal for a US economy to lose money in culture slider as it costs more and you lose productivity)

Ummm no, moving out of US costs one :hammers: which is worth no more than 3 :commerce: for a direct rushbuy; less for Kremlin based uses. More tellingly a smaller proportion of your production comes from US driven :hammers: (thanks to corps, mines, mills, and WSs) than the percentage of science comes from rep :science:. In addition taking 5 happiness off the top is not without its own troubles for your larger cities. With a nice late game terminal economy, you can reach some insane maximums with FS cottages and corps; build or take the Kremlin and CR. Build the internet. You now can outproduce mines with cottages with a 3 building infrastructure base. You can use Rushbuy one turn to cash out gold in one unit per city fashion, and then swap back to PS for perpetual war.

Of course for the most efficient late game war you should be suffering essentially zero WW; nuke and win.

If you want EP, just pump FS cottages via the slider, it's the most effective way to get it. Late game drafting is handily inferior to late game whipping. Kremlin whipping Sushi is more efficient than drafting rifles; let alone infantry or mech inf. If I have the pop growth to regrow multiple pop drafts, I'm normally better off whipping out nukes, MA, MArty, bombers, etc. Late game drafting is pretty much a Spi/CR gambit that is useful only when your war plans hit a major snag.

As far as using the cultural slider, meh a few turns at 20% (which goes a long way all three buildings) is cheap to for a conquest. Even if we assume that 100% of your :commerce: is going to science, a 20% loss of :science: from fighting WW is less than the typical losses from losing rep :science: (as high as 50% of your :beakers: output, though 35% would be more typical).

To whit, US -> PS costs you some production, normally less than 20% of your total production and if you are that committed to a war (assuming this isn't just a swap of opportunity for a few turns); well over 80% of your production should be going to units . Swapping from rep to PS loses you around 50% of your science output; and has happiness costs, on the flip side you do gain more production. Alternatively, dropping down 20% culture is not the end of the game for cottages, you still have 5.6 :commerce: + 1 :hammers: per tile overall yield; which can handily beat all other yields (mines/WS and farms gives 2.67 :hammers: per net tile, simple conversion gives 2.87 equivalent :hammers:). Note I am assuming neither the Kremlin nor FIN here, either of which demonstrates even more dramatically how much more you lose going Rep -> PS than US -> PS or fighting it off with culture.
 
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