[WIP] Project Civ: A Quality-Oriented Civ Pack

Backgound
Even in Real Life History, that's what they were. :D Bullies.
An extreme glaring example of Statism for about 500 years +- 100 years.
Their society was one of the first after the Greek Dark Ages that afflicted the Greeks after the Trojan Wars, to adopt a system of Laws circa 800 BCE, drawn up by a gentleman named Drakon, yes he existed, that were exceptionally harsh but necessary for them to survive. (That's why when very harsh conditions/laws are imposed even to day we say "these are Draconian Measures". One of the conditions was that no one could own gold coins! So in the film, when the traitor is shown to have gold Darii, it's a self incriminating admission and they kill him).

The problem was that they got into what Sociologists call a "trap" because if they evolved, they would lose their hegemony. So they continued in their old ways, until Alexander showed that he could beat them, and then the Roman Legions who adopted Alexander's uncle's, also an Alexander, King of Epirus fighting methods and style for "Rough" terrain, when he was their ally, and they became a "spent force" in the anals of History.

Mod
The Spartan Army was never a large army, it was an army of quality and endurance. For your mod, you should find a way to increase XP to a ridiculous amount; the cost of making a Unit high comparatively to other units, (it took a youngster 15 years before he could be allowed into the Army's Ranks but trained to subsist at very low cost); so your maintenance costs should be very low.

Promotions of "Fighting at full Strength" is a must for the Spartans both Phalanx and Mounted not their Siege or Navy. Also the "Fear" promo from the Mongol DLC as well as the Mongol style General, will give your Mod a more Spartan Flavor.

I'll test your mod and report findings, if you want.
 
Backgound
Even in Real Life History, that's what they were. :D Bullies.
An extreme glaring example of Statism for about 500 years +- 100 years.
Their society was one of the first after the Greek Dark Ages that afflicted the Greeks after the Trojan Wars, to adopt a system of Laws circa 800 BCE, drawn up by a gentleman named Drakon, yes he existed, that were exceptionally harsh but necessary for them to survive. (That's why when very harsh conditions/laws are imposed even to day we say "these are Draconian Measures". One of the conditions was that no one could own gold coins! So in the film, when the traitor is shown to have gold Darii, it's a self incriminating admission and they kill him).

The problem was that they got into what Sociologists call a "trap" because if they evolved, they would lose their hegemony. So they continued in their old ways, until Alexander showed that he could beat them, and then the Roman Legions who adopted Alexander's uncle's, also an Alexander, King of Epirus fighting methods and style for "Rough" terrain, when he was their ally, and they became a "spent force" in the anals of History.

Mod
The Spartan Army was never a large army, it was an army of quality and endurance. For your mod, you should find a way to increase XP to a ridiculous amount; the cost of making a Unit high comparatively to other units, (it took a youngster 15 years before he could be allowed into the Army's Ranks but trained to subsist at very low cost); so your maintenance costs should be very low.

Promotions of "Fighting at full Strength" is a must for the Spartans both Phalanx and Mounted not their Siege or Navy. Also the "Fear" promo from the Mongol DLC as well as the Mongol style General, will give your Mod a more Spartan Flavor.

I'll test your mod and report findings, if you want.


Well. One of their UB's replaces walls, but gives no defence. Instead, it gives culture and XP. So they basically get one more XP building than everyone else.

I'm considering cutting back on their free units, but instead giving them XP to make up for it. In addition, I've considered giving them a chokepoint bonus for all units. How I can tell the game what a chokepoint is and isn't is up in the air.

I've also thought about giving them a cut to unit maintenance costs as well. I'll figure out how to implement this.

But the idea behind their current trait is to reflect their extreme form of national service, which to most folks is Sparta's most defining trait. A side effect of this is that they get to focus on building their cities moreso than other civs.




On a side note, I think it's hilariously vain to name your country's currency after yourself :P
 
Oh no, AFAIK, the Darius coin wasn't initially named the Darius, the people called it that, because it had his face on it. It's like a quarter, means 25c which is the official name but the people call it a quarter. It was also the only coin in the then civilized world, that did not fluctuate in % of gold in it for a very long time.

Also one must not forget that the concept of a country then, was very different to what we now have. The king was not a member of the country, the country belonged to the king.

Kings were sovereign. Laws did not apply to them. Violence and strength are the defining concepts here. The study of this subject is called Megapolitics. In fact, if you really think about it even today there are no laws that apply to sovereign nations even today. They co-operate by agreements, comparative strengths and world perceptions.

By the way, I like your mod. I now have read the whole thread and I like your art and your ideas. They're fresh and well executed. :goodjob:
 
Also, here's the stuff for Sparta pre-Alpha 1:

Walls of Sparta: Receive a Free Infantry Unit for each Citizen in the Capital. Free units do NOT recieve XP bonuses from buildings in the capital.

Unique Unit: Phalanx -- While having only 12 Strength (compared to Hoplites' 13,) the Phalanx has a 25% ranged defensive bonus, as well as having a 25% defensive bonus and +5 healing bonus outside of friendly territory. Think of them as a defensive Hoplite. Replaces Spearman.

Unique Building: Syssitia Hall -- +3 Culture, +15 XP for Land Units built in this City. Replaces Walls.


These are what I'm planning for future changes. It will be interesting to see if Sparta can retain its bully status, or if they shift into the Militaristic category. Reducing the free units fixes a problem that I see with Sparta in that you get to construct buildings and wonders far too much, and that the free units would often outstrip a tall empire's supply.

Sparta pre-Alpha 2 (:c5unhappy: Tiniest Nerf [Pretty Much Balance-Neutral])
  • Walls of Sparta (:c5happy: Balance-Neutral)
    • Free units per citizens in Capital reduced from 1 per 1 to 1 per 2. (:c5unhappy: Nerf)
    • Free units now receive XP and free Promotions from Buildings. (:c5happy: Buff)
  • Phalanx (:c5happy: Balance-Neutral)
    • No Changes (:c5happy: Balance-Neutral)
  • Syssitia Hall (:c5unhappy: Nerf)
    • Culture reduced from +3 to +2. (:c5unhappy: Nerf)

Oh no, AFAIK, the Darius coin wasn't initially named the Darius, the people called it that, because it had his face on it. It's like a quarter, means 25c which is the official name but the people call it a quarter. It was also the only coin in the then civilized world, that did not fluctuate in % of gold in it for a very long time.

Also one must not forget that the concept of a country then, was very different to what we now have. The king was not a member of the country, the country belonged to the king.

Kings were sovereign. Laws did not apply to them. Violence and strength are the defining concepts here. The study of this subject is called Megapolitics. In fact, if you really think about it even today there are no laws that apply to sovereign nations even today. They co-operate by agreements, comparative strengths and world perceptions.

By the way, I like your mod. I now have read the whole thread and I like your art and your ideas. They're fresh and well executed. :goodjob:

Oh gee thanks, it's not like I know much about history or anything so I like to have a good lesson every now and then :mad:

I agree. My proposal to a Spartan Trait:

Agoge: All Units Start With + 15 Experience.

Unnecessary. Sparta already has access to one more military training building than everyone else: The Syssitia Hall.
 
My greatest apologies, I wrote this as if I was talking to someone who does know history and would be able to understand the greater implications of what I said. It's most probably why I like your mod ideas, they reflect some historicity.

Never mind, I'll refrain from opening any more Historical or Economics discussions in the future as I only have a lowly PhD in Economic History, earned in 1989 after an executive MBA, and an Honours BSc in Chemistry, earned in the previous 15 years.

Thanks for the Mods anyway. They're nice.

BTW, History is the most logical subject outside the Hard Sciences. It is also a most powerful predictive tool. If you want PM me as this is not the forum for that type of open discussion. (The invitation is extended because you know and research the subject.) ;)
 
My point is moslty JA_Lambs one. Maybe my idea is bad, but Sparta with a big army differs historically from Sparta. I have some knowdlege in Classical Greek History.

Agoge is a really important part of Spartan Culture, and culture defines the identity of a people. Also, JA_Lamb I disagree with you, History repeats itseld, yes that is true. However, history is not logical, as it represents humans, and groups of humans. That is highly caotic, because humans have free will, and often don't act in a rational way. Everithing influences everything, to predict the movement of a ball in a snooker table you have to know the values of everything untill a three-trillion light years away particle, because that could influence the movement. In History there is an huge number of this factors ad the principle is the same. What were the odds that the civilizations rose, what are the odds we exist, anyway? We exist because it was one cellulle and not other of billions that fertilized an ovule... Nassim Nicholas Taleb writes a lot of reflections about history in his book, wich I defiantly reccomend about the highly improbable theories. I dislike Histpry wanting to explain everything because it is much more complex than history textbooks say it is.

Some links to the book: Google Books

Amazon

Guardian Review (didn't read)

Altpught Wikipedia is stupid
 
And Gandhi being a Nuke-slinging warmonger to the world differs historically from him. Historical accuracy is not the only contributing factor in Civ.

It is one of the them. There are historically accurate games (as the Total War series) but they only represent a part of human history
 
Genghis.Khan, thank you for the reply. May I break it down into it's various components in a bit to answer and expand it a little as you have touched on certain subjects that are dear to me.

1) My background is extremely similar to Prof. Taleb's, as we spent our formative years in the same milieu, albeit in different countries, but we speak the same languages although I also have Greek which he hasn't.

2) The Black Swan is a cry from a polymath to the world about self evident truths that a little common sense could have predicted and the world could have avoided the terrible economic implosion of 2007/2008. Alas common sense is hardly common. because like the turkey we're unaware of who is honing what ax and for what reason. But in practical terms, read the news like History should and you'll start seeing disparities between actions and mouthings. Then like all the philisophers believe the actions and not the words, you should be fine.

3) History repeats, but not as Academicians (what Taleb calls them) write. But imagine a spring, paint a line down it's one side, now stretch it a bit, you'll see that the lines are separate but nearer each other than the opposite side of the loop . That's history, when conditions start to coalesce towards a general point, it more or less repeats.

4) Human nature is basic, we all need certain things to live and be content. Those certain things are very similar whether you're Chinese, African, European or anything else, as long as you're human. There are only so many ways one can put their pants on. The problem is that Academicians who teach us, have to write books and be published, so they sprout various theories and all new minds absorb these and get lost.

5) It takes about 5 years to unlearn the 60 to 70% of useless or unworkable theories one learns at College or University for a person to become practically useful. Ok enough on Taleb and the Thanksgiving Turkey of whether it was a Black or Grey Swan situation.

6) Sparta was always influenced by the fact that it had enslaved the Helots and was always in danger of a slave revolution. It was a social trap that the Spartans were unable to escape from until they lost to the Romans.

7)
Everithing influences everything, to predict the movement of a ball in a snooker table you have to know the values of everything untill a three-trillion light years away particle, because that could influence the movement.

I've read this before and I'd like you to dispassionately think on this. If you expand on the above statement, then you have just proven mathematically that the Ancients were right and that the underlying principals of star positioning affects us at the moment of birth!!! After all we're just a sack of 70% water and much more susceptible than a plastic snooker ball, no? Then hello Astrology based on higher mathematics !!! Newton would skewer you :lol:

8) BTW here is a parting shot about History and Academicians (love this Talebism). If you ever visit the Sphinx of Gizah, you'll find that it sits within an excavated bowl. Up to Carter's time in the early 20th century, the body was covered by sand. they have since excavated it and cleaned out the whole bowl. If you look at the walls of this bowl they're weathered.

Now the interesting bit. The sphinx according to the best Egyptologists fired by Nationalistic fervour, is not much older than Ramses. The walls of the wall from which the statue was dug out of show water weathering by the best Geologists in the world.

It is well known that there has been no rain in the amounts required for this weathering since about 12 000 to 16 000 years ago.

Who do you believe? the soft science archaeologists who have a National ax to grind, or the hard science geologists who don't? your call.

If you want more, PM me this post is being hi-jacked from poor Irkhala and it's unfair on him.
 
Pouakai, Gandhi was a brave man. Listen to his quote:

"If the final necessity comes down to violence or cowardice then one must go with violence."

The Dalai Llama when interviewed also said that one must defend oneself if attacked.

All these people did not wear rose tinted glasses in a violent world. They are against instituting initial violence. Not defensive responsive violence. In other words "don't start with me because I'll finish what you start". So a nuke wielding Gandhi to save his nation? It's a natural.
 
Irkalla, here's an idea from Kael's FfH2 for your Walls of Sparta.

There was a Civ that had a Building called the Arena or some such, you threw/placed any new unit in it for a couple of turns and there was good % chance that it didn't survive, but if it did, then when it came out it sort of bristled with XP. Used random generator. AFAI remember.

That's a perfect Spartan mechanic allowing for making a low number of strong troops from a high number offered.

The AI worked this with rolling random numbers to place units in the Arena.

If I'm not mistaken somewhere in Civ4 he actually said he got the idea either from the Spartans training, which was notoriously harsh, or the Roman Gladiators, also harsh.

At least this is practical for what you're trying to accomplish. :)
 
Irkalla, here's an idea from Kael's FfH2 for your Walls of Sparta.

There was a Civ that had a Building called the Arena or some such, you threw/placed any new unit in it for a couple of turns and there was good % chance that it didn't survive, but if it did, then when it came out it sort of bristled with XP. Used random generator. AFAI remember.

That's a perfect Spartan mechanic allowing for making a low number of strong troops from a high number offered.

The AI worked this with rolling random numbers to place units in the Arena.

If I'm not mistaken somewhere in Civ4 he actually said he got the idea either from the Spartans training, which was notoriously harsh, or the Roman Gladiators, also harsh.

At least this is practical for what you're trying to accomplish. :)

That is a good mechanic, but I personally find it too flavourful. That is, it's just too different from other things in the game. Too much is required to make use of it.

Also, You're a doctor? Sweet. I'm an unemployed guy with a high school diploma. Talk down to me about history all you want. You've earned it.

The reason I went with free units is basically a rough simulation of the agoge. The state is guaranteed military units through population growth. I never could think of a good reason to simulate helots and such. Besides, who wants to go to war with their workers for a few months out of every year?

A side effect of my trait is that it forces Sparta to be a lot more bully like to keep their treasury filled. So you're trading diplomatic standing for a stronger military. These were traits that Sparta showed in its hegemony over the Peloponnesian League.

In Civ 5, giving the units ungodly amounts of XP would be imbalanced. Doesn't matter if it's RNG or not. More units is simply translating the Agoge to civ 5 play mechanics. It gives the player a stronger military the same way units with more XP does, but it is more fair. I've made the compromise of giving less units, but giving them free XP and promotions that they should get from the city.



By the way, if you think about it, Sparta gets to build more because they don't have to worry about a standing army. This is also similar to how Sparta worked in real life. The Spartan citizens worried not about building up their cities and doing stuff like that, because that was the job of the helots.
 
I'll be getting around to that between now and Phoenicia. I may actually hold off on Phoenicia; Tibet and Gran Colombia are starting to shape up. I want your ideas for a second unique item for Phoenicia!

The Phoenician modmerge I've put on the back burner takes one unique from each version: the Trade Harbor as a UB and the Square-sailed Ship as a UU. (Having ANY unique replace Great People, as one author tried to do, is bad for people who depend on GP structures to improve their cities in the late game.)
 
Irkalla,

Talk down to me about history all you want. You've earned it.

I don't talk down to anybody about anything, that is at least counterproductive. The best manager I know never finished High School because his parents died just as he got in his 12th year. But he self read and trained and asked questions and applied them. But he has character and came to understand people. In MBA circles that's almost like hens teeth. You may be able to administer, but not lead. Leadership and loyalty is what you need when the chips are down and at some point they always go down.

Don't ever, ever self denigrate yourself because the other guy put more hours of study and was able to pass certain exams. It doesn't translate in practical life. Read Nicholas Taleb's book the "Black Swan" that Genghis.Khan introduced, also a couple of historical novels by Prof. Eco, that Taleb mentions, they're both entertaining. Taleb makes a very good point against Academicians. My question when faced with one of that breed is, "How many payrolls have you ever personally met Prof? How many families were you ever responsible for? to eat? their well being?"... You'll be surprised by the sparsity of real life capabilities of those that should know.

BTW, my normal business cards carry no honorifics. I don't self advertise, just like Socrates when he was told that the Oracle of Delphi proclaimed him the wisest man alive, his reply was, "but I say I know nothing!"

The only cards I carry with the honorifics, I use for airlines, because they bump you up and find you seats on full planes when travelling. :lol:

You seem to like History, do a course of Accounting somewhere so that you know the differences between an Asset and a Liability, read everything you can from Peter F. Drucker, (the only Management writer/guru, Bill Gates admits to having read), Goldratt, on the Theory Of Constraints (TOC) and it's management applications, and Donaldson's "The Sovereign Individual", that's a good one for Megapolitics and the application of violence. And keep up your historical reading hobby, it's invaluable. Oh by the way, read the Prince by Machiavelli too. You'll find that once you've read them a couple of times, you'll be able to read a Headline and immediately realize what ax is being ground and that there are special interests involved.

After your Accounting find any job, immaterial of how lowly it may be. Apply yourself hard and never say this is not part of my job description!! And always take on more things to do. First you'll expand horizontally as the "can do" man, then comes the vertical growth. Do you know how few people there are who are prepared to do this?

And just a last question, but think it through yourself don't ask others for the answer. "Why do you buy drill bits?"

BTW I understand your point for Sparta. Between RL and trying to learn enough to mod in CiV, I haven't played it yet, but I will soon.
 
Irkalla,



I don't talk down to anybody about anything, that is at least counterproductive. The best manager I know never finished High School because his parents died just as he got in his 12th year. But he self read and trained and asked questions and applied them. But he has character and came to understand people. In MBA circles that's almost like hens teeth. You may be able to administer, but not lead. Leadership and loyalty is what you need when the chips are down and at some point they always go down.

Don't ever, ever self denigrate yourself because the other guy put more hours of study and was able to pass certain exams. It doesn't translate in practical life. Read Nicholas Taleb's book the "Black Swan" that Genghis.Khan introduced, also a couple of historical novels by Prof. Eco, that Taleb mentions, they're both entertaining. Taleb makes a very good point against Academicians. My question when faced with one of that breed is, "How many payrolls have you ever personally met Prof? How many families were you ever responsible for? to eat? their well being?"... You'll be surprised by the sparsity of real life capabilities of those that should know.

BTW, my normal business cards carry no honorifics. I don't self advertise, just like Socrates when he was told that the Oracle of Delphi proclaimed him the wisest man alive, his reply was, "but I say I know nothing!"

The only cards I carry with the honorifics, I use for airlines, because they bump you up and find you seats on full planes when travelling. :lol:

You seem to like History, do a course of Accounting somewhere so that you know the differences between an Asset and a Liability, read everything you can from Peter F. Drucker, (the only Management writer/guru, Bill Gates admits to having read), Goldratt, on the Theory Of Constraints (TOC) and it's management applications, and Donaldson's "The Sovereign Individual", that's a good one for Megapolitics and the application of violence. And keep up your historical reading hobby, it's invaluable. Oh by the way, read the Prince by Machiavelli too. You'll find that once you've read them a couple of times, you'll be able to read a Headline and immediately realize what ax is being ground and that there are special interests involved.

After your Accounting find any job, immaterial of how lowly it may be. Apply yourself hard and never say this is not part of my job description!! And always take on more things to do. First you'll expand horizontally as the "can do" man, then comes the vertical growth. Do you know how few people there are who are prepared to do this?

And just a last question, but think it through yourself don't ask others for the answer. "Why do you buy drill bits?"

BTW I understand your point for Sparta. Between RL and trying to learn enough to mod in CiV, I haven't played it yet, but I will soon.

I'm known for saying brash things that have a rather tame meaning. What I meant to say was that you are entitled to respect for giving up 8 years of your life in the pursuit of knowledge. I value that.

Why do we buy drill bits? Contained within this question are many smaller questions that must each be answered.

Why do we buy? Because we lack either the time, effort, or supplies to manufacture whatever goods we buy for ourselves. This, or we value the monetary value below the time that we would invest sufficing ourselves by producing the good.

Why do we buy tools? Because they aid us in doing the job. Having the right tool for the job helps us get the job done in a safe and timely fashion.

Why do we buy drill bits? Because we need to put a hole in something and shooting it will make a mess. Drills are typically built to accept a wide gamut of different attachments, some of them being drill bits. We need different sized holes to be drilled, so we buy different sized drill bits.

Shortly stated, we buy drill bits because...
  1. We need them for the job at hand.
  2. We lack either the time, effort, or materials to create them ourselves.
  3. Alternatively to number two, we value our currency less than the investment of time, materials, and effort that would go into making them
  4. And lastly, we buy them because we have drills.

I suspect you're looking for some philosophical answer here, but I don't think I'll be able to provide it.
 
No, not an Academicians Philosophical answer, but a common sense one that the old Philosophers were so fond of.

Shortly stated, we buy drill bits because...
We need them for the job at hand.
We lack either the time, effort, or materials to create them ourselves.
Alternatively to number two, we value our currency less than the investment of time, materials, and effort that would go into making them
And lastly, we buy them because we have drills.

I suspect you're looking for some philosophical answer here, but I don't think I'll be able to provide it.

Why do we buy drill bits? Because we need to put a hole in something and shooting it will make a mess.

Well done, in the wide ranging answer that you gave, you were better than 50% of the first class of MBA's Prof Levitt of Harvard taught. (And in the top 20% of mine)

Occam's razor, the simplest answer is usually the right answer. We buy drill bits because we want to put a hole in something!!

We always, always buy the benefit, not the tool, nor the means. We buy the final result.

Expanding this, if we can invent a tool that uses a lazer to make a hole, then we'll take the market from every drill and drill bit manufacturer in the world.

It's a different type of thinking and attitude. Think of the client's benefit first, then see how you can really service him.

A real life example is the Japanese gentleman who invented a washing machine that cleaned clothes with Ultrasonics and water only, not requiring any washing chemicals whatsoever.

Unilever bought his patents for an obscene amount of money, else they stood to close down over 100 plants world wide.

See the need, see the benefit required, how can it be fulfilled? it's called KISS. Keep It Simple S... ;). (Goldratt "late night discussions").

Thales of Militos, considered by many as the father of Philosophy, is reported to have said, that Philosophy must be practical else it is mere Sophistry and Sophistry is what your lawyer uses to keep you out of jail, when you're patently guilty.

So, you have a good brain, you covered all the bases including opportunity costs etc. so, don't ever denigrate yourself again. And no it didn't take me eight years; between life's vagaries, money shortages, time shortages, etc. it was more like 14 years but hey who's counting. :D
 
Also, I'd like to go ahead and announce that Project Civ's next mod will not be a civ!

It will be a religion mod. The aim of this is to represent every current civ in the game with a more accurate religion, as well as represent all of Project Civ's current and future civs with accurate religions. In addition, it will put in major religions that should be represented but aren't. Some of these religions may use controversial symbols, such as Jainism (Swastika) and Thriskeia (Meandros.)

Mainly, this will serve as a filler until a things better come together, but will serve the practical purpose of providing every civ with a religion too.

As of right now, I've got these on paper that are ready to go.

Religion Name|Respective Civ(s)
Inimdug|Sumer
Jainism|India
Thriskeia|Greece, Sparta
Shalimu|Babylon
Religio|Rome
Pesedjetism|Egypt
Creitimi|Celts
Teotlism(?)|Aztecs
Aesirtru(?)|Denmark
Manaism(?)|Polynesia
As-of-Yet Unnamed|Mayans
As-of-Yet Unnamed|Inca
As-of-Yet Unnamed|Carthage, Phoenicia
 
Egypt => Khetism?

I'd rather avoid uh... Patrianymic names I guess? Toponymic maybe?

Though I will admit, one of the religion names I simply made up. Sort of. Creitimi is my Primitive Irish reconstruction from Creitim which is an Old Gaelic word for faith; religion.

The other names are words that mean respect, worship, or whatever of the gods by men.

Time for some reading about heiroglyphs I guess. Based on other Afro-Asiatic languages, I have a fairly good idea that the word would contain "hotep"

Maybe something like Pathotepnetser (Man at peace with the gods,) or Gemehnetser (looking to the gods.) Dewa means worshipping, Heqa means rule... Heqanetser (Rule by the gods.)



But yeah, Dewa is the closest word I can find that would probably be used for religion. One would be able to proclaim his faith in ancient Egypt by saying "Dewa inki/anka/anki/inka." or "I worship." In their minds, you shouldn't have to say what you worship to affirm your belief in the gods, as there is effectively only one pantheon.
 
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