[WIP] Project Civ: A Quality-Oriented Civ Pack

This is from a Civ IV mod, where I really liked the approach for religions:
(Base religions in Civ IV: Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Taoism)

NEW RELIGIONS

Diplomacy II offers eleven new religions for a total of 18 religions in the game. Currently these religions are only accessible with the "choose religion" option selected, but I am currently working on a way around that. But if you'd like to know the religions here they are:
  • Anunnaki - Anunnaki is the name of the Mesopotamian (Babylonian/Sumerian) pantheon. It is a polytheistic religion centering around Marduk, but generally speaking each city-state in Mesopotamia had their own patron gods as well. When one city conquered another, that city would have to adopt a new patron god (i.e. the god of the victorious city). This occured over and over again, until Marduk became the prevailing god under the Babylonian Empire.
  • Aesir - Aesir is the name of a specific pantheon of Norse deities. These deities often fought amongst eachother as well as against giants, ogres, and other mythical creatures. In Diplomacy II only the Vikings favor this religion, however these beliefs were quite similar (and related) to ancient Germanic religious beliefs.
  • Druidism - Druidism is the religion of the Celts, it combines elements of animism and polytheism. This religion, like many other ancient religions, involved sacrifice (and in extreme, often military cases, human sacrifice) and a reverence for nature.
  • Ba'alism - This religion covers the Levant/Eastern Mediterranean beliefs. Ba'al is a title (roughly meaning "lord") given to the supreme deity, which changed often depending on which city-state you lived in. This religion was followed by Canaanites, Phoenicians and Carthaginians and was probably the precursor to the ancient Hebrew religion Judaism.
  • Olympic Pantheon - This is the religion of the Hellenic Greeks, it was also adopted by the Romans, Latins, Thracians, and Etruscans to name a few.
  • Pesedjet - This is the ancient Egyptian religion, which was based upon worship of the sun and the nile. The concept of birth, death and rebirth was a common theme as the sun arose and set every morning and the ebb and flow of the nile. Many believe that the ancient Egyptian religion was influential on Christianity.
  • Shamanism - this is not so much a religion as it is a type of style of religion. In Diplomacy II this religion serves as a "catch-all" for the native North American civs like the Iroquois and Sioux.
  • Shinto - this is a Japanese religion, it has elements of animism and ancestor worship.
  • Teotl - this word describes the pantheon of meso-American deities. It is favored by the Aztecs and Maya, and involves various deities that sacrifices (often human sacrifices) are made to. In this religion blood is seen as a holy material, and it is highly valued. Human blood is especially valuable and often given to the gods for various reasons. Mainly war and rainfall.
  • Vodun/Voodoo - this religion covers both caribbean and east sub-saharan African religions.
  • Zoroastrianism - this is an ancient Persian monotheistic religion.

If I said anything incorrect here please let me know, I just wrote this from the top of my head so I could easily be mistaken about something. The descriptions aren't really important here though.

So, I would suggest using
Pesedjet as the Egyptian religion
Aesir as the Norse religion
Teotl as the Meso-American religion
And would strongly suggest adding Ba'alism as well
Also, I wouldn't split the Sumer and Babylonian worships, and call those as Anunnaki
 
This is from a Civ IV mod, where I really liked the approach for religions:
(Base religions in Civ IV: Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Taoism)



So, I would suggest using
Pesedjet as the Egyptian religion
Aesir as the Norse religion
Teotl as the Meso-American religion
And would strongly suggest adding Ba'alism as well
Also, I wouldn't split the Sumer and Babylonian worships, and call those as Anunnaki

Anunnaki, Teotl, and Aesir are just pieces of the religion. That would be like calling Christianity 'Jesus.' If you look closely, you'll realise I used Aesir and Teotl. I just used them in an acceptable way.

Teotlism, and Aesirtru (Faith in the Aesir.)

Annunaki is just a bollocks name. That would be like calling Greek religion Titans, or calling Celtic religion Fomorians.

Pesedjet is just the word for pantheon in Egyptian, but I may go with it. I think I will. I've heard it used enough.
 
Anunnaki, Teotl, and Aesir are just pieces of the religion. That would be like calling Christianity 'Jesus.' If you look closely, you'll realise I used Aesir and Teotl. I just used them in an acceptable way.

Teotlism, and Aesirtru (Faith in the Aesir.)

Annunaki is just a bollocks name. That would be like calling Greek religion Titans, or calling Celtic religion Fomorians.

Pesedjet is just the word for pantheon in Egyptian, but I may go with it. I think I will. I've heard it used enough.

Yeah, i saw Teotlism and Aesirtru in your post
I wrote those to strenghten you in using these, as there were with a ? in your list
I read a little about Anunnaki, you are right, it was a poor choice

What about Baalism for Phoenicia and Carthage, you also dislike that?
Are you sure you want to have a separate religion for the Aztecs and the Maya?
 
Yeah, i saw Teotlism and Aesirtru in your post
I wrote those to strenghten you in using these, as there were with a ? in your list
I read a little about Anunnaki, you are right, it was a poor choice

In addition I'll probably go with Baalism for the Punic religion. You'll find many, many religions refer to "Those who came before." Greek religion, Celtic religion, and Sumero-Babylonian religion make notes of these I know.
 
A few points:

-I wouldn't really use a form of Ásatrú/Aesirtru etc. for Norse religion. That word was invented primarily in a neo-pagan re-constructivist context and especially in English refers to the modern worship of the Norse gods (which as you can imagine bears very little resemblance to the indigenous pre-modern form). The Vikings themselves would never have used that term. The same is true for Kemetism.

-Ba'alism is also weird for Punic religion if you are covering both Phoenicia and Carthage. It's true Ba'al meant lord, but in virtually every instance in Levantine religion it refered specifically to Ba'al Hadad. However, this was not the case with Carthage in which the Ba'al referred to was Ba'al Hammon along with a greater shift towards Tanit. And it disregards the large period of the religions history where El was still the center of cultic worship. Also, if you are lumping together Phoenicia and Carthage I'm confused why you are then not also lumping together Sumer + Babylon and Greece + Rome (and to a lesser extent Aztec + Maya). The differences in cultic beliefs between Phoenicia and Carthage are at least as great as the differences between any of those groupings, while each group can also be seen as belonging to a larger mother group (although the actual time-frame represented makes a huge difference in the similarities or differences).

-No religion for the Iroquois?

-Also, how will your religion mod distinguish itself from the Historical Religion mod already on the workshop/forum. I see that you are doing more specific religions instead of the groupings that mod uses, but I mean, I imagine making the mod is a lot of work and there's the risk it would get buried when there's already a popular similar mod available.
 
Genghis.Khan, thank you for the reply. May I break it down into it's various components in a bit to answer and expand it a little as you have touched on certain subjects that are dear to me.

1) My background is extremely similar to Prof. Taleb's, as we spent our formative years in the same milieu, albeit in different countries, but we speak the same languages although I also have Greek which he hasn't.

2) The Black Swan is a cry from a polymath to the world about self evident truths that a little common sense could have predicted and the world could have avoided the terrible economic implosion of 2007/2008. Alas common sense is hardly common. because like the turkey we're unaware of who is honing what ax and for what reason. But in practical terms, read the news like History should and you'll start seeing disparities between actions and mouthings. Then like all the philisophers believe the actions and not the words, you should be fine.

3) History repeats, but not as Academicians (what Taleb calls them) write. But imagine a spring, paint a line down it's one side, now stretch it a bit, you'll see that the lines are separate but nearer each other than the opposite side of the loop . That's history, when conditions start to coalesce towards a general point, it more or less repeats.

4) Human nature is basic, we all need certain things to live and be content. Those certain things are very similar whether you're Chinese, African, European or anything else, as long as you're human. There are only so many ways one can put their pants on. The problem is that Academicians who teach us, have to write books and be published, so they sprout various theories and all new minds absorb these and get lost.

5) It takes about 5 years to unlearn the 60 to 70% of useless or unworkable theories one learns at College or University for a person to become practically useful. Ok enough on Taleb and the Thanksgiving Turkey of whether it was a Black or Grey Swan situation.

6) Sparta was always influenced by the fact that it had enslaved the Helots and was always in danger of a slave revolution. It was a social trap that the Spartans were unable to escape from until they lost to the Romans.

7)


I've read this before and I'd like you to dispassionately think on this. If you expand on the above statement, then you have just proven mathematically that the Ancients were right and that the underlying principals of star positioning affects us at the moment of birth!!! After all we're just a sack of 70% water and much more susceptible than a plastic snooker ball, no? Then hello Astrology based on higher mathematics !!! Newton would skewer you :lol:

8) BTW here is a parting shot about History and Academicians (love this Talebism). If you ever visit the Sphinx of Gizah, you'll find that it sits within an excavated bowl. Up to Carter's time in the early 20th century, the body was covered by sand. they have since excavated it and cleaned out the whole bowl. If you look at the walls of this bowl they're weathered.

Now the interesting bit. The sphinx according to the best Egyptologists fired by Nationalistic fervour, is not much older than Ramses. The walls of the wall from which the statue was dug out of show water weathering by the best Geologists in the world.

It is well known that there has been no rain in the amounts required for this weathering since about 12 000 to 16 000 years ago.

Who do you believe? the soft science archaeologists who have a National ax to grind, or the hard science geologists who don't? your call.

If you want more, PM me this post is being hi-jacked from poor Irkhala and it's unfair on him.

If you want more, PM me this post is being hi-jacked from poor Irkhala and it's unfair on him.

Well, sorry Irkalla. But I am at least going to awnser.

0) Nice to have a discussion like this, to get my brain awake. Anyway sorry for the following

- I am really young (not even old enough to be called a teenager by british standarts) and have limited knowdlege in every area, despite having a decent education and some knowdlege in History (especially Portuguese History, and a world-Portuguese/European (Mediterranean) focused History

- English is not my first language, and altought is a language I learned from hearing and talking, not by reading a Grammar, I have limited experience in English and mine is far from perfect... several thousand miles away. So I might misunderstand you.

- I am aware that I'm deeply influence by European/Mediterrean culture, by the media, by everything that is around us, so I don't have that critical sense I would like to.

1)
I am as good as Taleb, actually I am better because I know Greek! Also Black Swan is about the 2007-2008-Present Crisis

I know that wasn't your intention but it was like it sounded like :)

The Black Swan is about aleatority wich is the base of the world in which we live.

2)
Alas common sense is hardly common. because like the turkey we're unaware of who is honing what ax and for what reason. But in practical terms, read the news like History should and you'll start seeing disparities between actions and mouthings

I agree common sense is not common for many factors. But I assume you are saying that common sense is not common because:

1- We (the public- this sounds akward ) don't really have the information of what is going on in the world

2- Information is influenced by the media, and taken to sensationalism news, and create (not only because of the cause I referred before) irreal concepts and provide explanations for everything and simplify everything, and some of them are things that are complex and can't be simplified.

3) I completely agree with you. Couldn't understand the methapore, sorry, poor English speaker. History repeats itself, that is a fact. Not only because of coincidences (nor anything supernatural), but as you mentioned, because with some conditions (that are caused by other conditions that are common - in sense of happenning lots of times) normally lead to some consequences. My point is that it doesn't always happens in History because of 4)

Human nature is basic, we all need certain things to live and be content. Those certain things are very similar whether you're Chinese, African, European or anything else, as long as you're human. There are only so many ways one can put their pants on. The problem is that Academicians who teach us, have to write books and be published, so they sprout various theories and all new minds absorb these and get lost.

4) I disagree with some of this. Human nature is basic, but as humans have freedom you can't expect them to do something. They will probably do something but it isn't certain. Note that an individual person has more freedom to act than a crowd and is more unpredictable because there are more factors (personal ones) with more relevance- that affect that people's behaviour. Cultural diferences are important too, but I agree they are minor. And also true: searching for reasons is possible as long as people are aware that:

- They do not represent truth: they're possibilities and

-They are not stupid, they are logical, plausible

5)And it takes lots of work to learn that what we've learnt is wrong. Anyway I disagree that Achademicans do this for merely economical reasons (ego too). And in fact I am almost certain that they believe in what they write

6) That is something in what I believe and think that is right. Not all of the explanations provided by History are wrong - but most of them are at least parcially wrong. That eminent danger of a slave revolt contributed to the Spartan culture/society.

7) :lol: Of course that is right. Horoscopes represent what will happen in our lives. I read them every week (or is it month a month - anyway I sometimes read them when I have nothing else to do - rare- to laugh a little bit) :rolleyes: :joke:

Anyway I am not saying the three-billion light years away star actually makes any difference. I am saying that there is a chance of 1/(don't have time to write a huge number) possibility of that happening. And I was referring to our existence: it was a spermatozoide, and not other in billions. Yes, if it was other we just as well might be ourselves. We just don't know. The 'conscience' of a human - us being us, controllig this body (we are our body- nothing else) - is a mistery to me as an atheist....

8) Always science. A great example of achademics providing false-explanations based on nothing, forming conjectures they take as hard truth, that make no sense.

I'll remeber this :mischief:

Sorry for being a pretend-to-be-intelligent-who-wants-to-discuss-lots-of-stuff-and-thinks-he-is-right-kid. I spent one hour writing this? Really?
 
Well, two things:

1.I agree Greek and Roman religion being the same; there are minor differences but they are really minor.

2.Greek Religion is not about Titans, more about Gods (who imprisioned the Titans, who had imprisioned the ancient Titans (Urano, etc), who ruled after the ancient gods, who where the creation of everything)
 
Well, two things:

1.I agree Greek and Roman religion being the same; there are minor differences but they are really minor.

2.Greek Religion is not about Titans, more about Gods (who imprisioned the Titans, who had imprisioned the ancient Titans (Urano, etc), who ruled after the ancient gods, who where the creation of everything)

In regards to number two, I said something that he said would be LIKE me doing that. You misunderstood. Easy to do given English isn't your native language, I assume.

A few points:

-I wouldn't really use a form of Ásatrú/Aesirtru etc. for Norse religion. That word was invented primarily in a neo-pagan re-constructivist context and especially in English refers to the modern worship of the Norse gods (which as you can imagine bears very little resemblance to the indigenous pre-modern form). The Vikings themselves would never have used that term. The same is true for Kemetism.

-Ba'alism is also weird for Punic religion if you are covering both Phoenicia and Carthage. It's true Ba'al meant lord, but in virtually every instance in Levantine religion it refered specifically to Ba'al Hadad. However, this was not the case with Carthage in which the Ba'al referred to was Ba'al Hammon along with a greater shift towards Tanit. And it disregards the large period of the religions history where El was still the center of cultic worship. Also, if you are lumping together Phoenicia and Carthage I'm confused why you are then not also lumping together Sumer + Babylon and Greece + Rome (and to a lesser extent Aztec + Maya). The differences in cultic beliefs between Phoenicia and Carthage are at least as great as the differences between any of those groupings, while each group can also be seen as belonging to a larger mother group (although the actual time-frame represented makes a huge difference in the similarities or differences).

-No religion for the Iroquois?

-Also, how will your religion mod distinguish itself from the Historical Religion mod already on the workshop/forum. I see that you are doing more specific religions instead of the groupings that mod uses, but I mean, I imagine making the mod is a lot of work and there's the risk it would get buried when there's already a popular similar mod available.

I'm using Aesirtru until I can find something better. I wasn't very confident in using that name anyway.

I wasn't very confident with Ba'alism either. What do you suggest?

The Iroquois went through who knows how many religious dogmas and everyone had largely differing opinions on how they went. These religions didn't last long before they gave way to the Longhouse religion which lasted some time, and then eventually gave way to Christianity which is how it is today in the Six Nations. Basically, they were religiously unstable until the Longhouse religion came along, which was heavily influenced by Christianity. Then they became Christian proper. So Christianity is their religion, like it or not. If they had a religion that I could safely go with, I'd go with it.

About the other mods, who gives a poopoo? They don't own religion. I decided that instead of including religions with each civ, I'd just release an optional religion thing that folks can get if they want to. It's mainly to avoid bundling religion mods with the civs. Who wants to download a civ and have all manner of other stuff come with it? A civ should just be a civ.

Why is Jainism being included as India already has Hinduism?

Why have Judaism when no one uses it? Why have Sikhism when India already has Hinduism?
 
Why have Judaism when no one uses it? Why have Sikhism when India already has Hinduism?

I was under the impression that this mod was to include religions for civilizations which do not have their own religions
 
I was under the impression that this mod was to include religions for civilizations which do not have their own religions

Jainism really doesn't deserve to be unrepresented. It's a major religion.
 
Fair enough - although, maybe use This for Jainism instead of the Swastika? Not because of the connotations with it in the 20th century, but because the Swastika is also used in other religions like Buddhism?
 
Fair enough - although, maybe use This for Jainism instead of the Swastika? Not because of the connotations with it in the 20th century, but because the Swastika is also used in other religions like Buddhism?

wonder if there's anything wrong with just using the hand?

Also agreedo about the swastika.
 
Genghis.Khan, never misquote any person who speaks to you.

The following excerpts do not mean the same thing, maybe to someone of your years it does, maybe you misunderstood the English idiomatic expression, but what I said is that we both grew up in the Middle East as youngsters, where we had to learn a variety of languages, and good manners according to the TIME and PLACE we were in.

The whole Eastern Mediterranean littoral after the 2ndWW and for about 20- 25 years later had a very similar way of life and basic education that encompassed so many subjects it was ridiculous. 15 subjects at Matriculation level.

1) My background is extremely similar to Prof. Taleb's, as we spent our formative years in the same milieu, albeit in different countries, but we speak the same languages although I also have Greek which he hasn't.

I am as good as Taleb, actually I am better because I know Greek! Also Black Swan is about the 2007-2008-Present Crisis

That type of thinking coloured our world views in a similar manner, and I own his books, which come to similar conclusions that I have distilled for myself over the years. His are backed by high order statistics, mine through Historical parallelism but we both agree, that somehow, humans do not perceive long term cascades of actions. Question, have you read the Black Swan? Did you know the Turkey story?
If not, then we are not on the same page.

About Human freedom? Ask your parents what would happen if there was no money coming in from work, ask if they don't feel obligated every morning, ask if they wouldn't like to do something different and not have to worry what will tomorrow bring. We're not free, we're enslaved by different means, but ... we're still Helots. :)

Human freedom is constrained, if it wasn't up to a point, then we'd have Hobbes reality, of war of everyone against everyone, and see his views as far as the intelligence and logical nature of a human being is concerned. (Hobbes, English Philosopher)

About things happening cyclically in History, there is even laws and names for these, the Kondratieff 50 year cycle, the 25 year and the 11 year cycles, but they're not taught at high school level.

Trust me History cycles, every now and then she changes her clothes and we don't see her coming, but she comes, sits on us till we are squeezed dry, then the cycle moves along it's path and we can breathe again.

Really this discussion is just too big to be continued here and I also cannot continue as I don't know whether you read the Black Swan or not.
 
I'd say the hand with just a plain circle would be fine, then again I'm not a Jain so I wouldn't be 100% sure

Also, the Jain swastika has 4 dots around it. That kinda changes things up, don't it?
 
The Iroquois went through who knows how many religious dogmas and everyone had largely differing opinions on how they went. These religions didn't last long before they gave way to the Longhouse religion which lasted some time, and then eventually gave way to Christianity which is how it is today in the Six Nations. Basically, they were religiously unstable until the Longhouse religion came along, which was heavily influenced by Christianity. Then they became Christian proper. So Christianity is their religion, like it or not. If they had a religion that I could safely go with, I'd go with it.

But that's only true of the Iroquois after the arrival of Colonialism and doesn't represent indigenous beliefs. Although the cultic practices have probably been lost, their is an attested Iroquois pantheon before Christianity which centered around dualistic creator gods as well as established axis mundi such as the world turtle. There's also several traditional Iroquois medicine societies to choose from.
 
But that's only true of the Iroquois after the arrival of Colonialism and doesn't represent indigenous beliefs. Although the cultic practices have probably been lost, their is an attested Iroquois pantheon before Christianity which centered around dualistic creator gods as well as established axis mundi such as the world turtle. There's also several traditional Iroquois medicine societies to choose from.


The only real belief I can find is one that unites them with the Mississippians: Their creation story. I'll see if I can't find one and pick it though.

So does the Buddhist one - saw plenty of swastikas with the four dots while I was at various Buddhist temples in Japan - I'll see if I can find a pic

Oh well hand it is
 
Irkalla, as a point of general interest if you could as I only have cursory knowledge of this, didn't all the American Indians share the belief of the Flood? Mind, this is just a side note, you don't have to explain, or go deeply here.
 
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