[WIP] The Hand Of History

[Vrenir]

Sorry about that. Every time I get one of those PMs, I realize that I'm "almost done" and that rather than respond, I should just knock the rest off. Then I get into it and it takes more time than I expected. In the past, that's when life has gotten in the way and by the time I get back again, some new amazing feature has been released or I have had an incredible new idea to incorporate.

That said, I have worked for more than eight hours a day on it for much of the last week, and I again believe that I am almost 100% ready. When I release these documents, they will be an almost complete blueprint for this entire mod! Hopefully, the blueprint can be posted in a WIP thread (maybe this one), and then it can be used to request/recruit help to lessen the burden on our couple of modders who have busy lives.

Just to give you a taste, here are some of the fairly established features:
- Emergent (future) Era: incorporated into the tech tree with its own extrapolated history and leaders
- Moral Ambiguity: political correctness and contemporary ethics are no longer imposed or favored by the game which now includes more leaders of ill-repute and tactics such as weapons of mass destruction, narcotic-trafficking, and thought-control
- Elite Units: invest enough promotions in your units and you might receive a unique and powerful version to lead your forces
- Unique Religions: no longer the same, each of the ten religions favors a specific victory and includes its own techs that flesh out its unique tradition
- Rebalanced EVERYTHING: all improvements, units, buildings, wonders, promotions, etc have been examined in both the vanilla game and in numerous mods, then brought together and streamlined into a game that emphasizes specialization, historic accuracy, global diversity, and zero redundancy

Also, some of the most recent additions:
- Specialized Civs: civs are divided into cultural groupings with their own unique buildings, units, wonders, promotions, strengths, and weaknesses in a system inspired by CivRev
- Minor Barbarian Civs: ten unplayable civs at peace with Barbarians to interact with
- Era-Based Civs and Leaders: civs represent specific stretches of time beginning at some point in the past and continuing into the future with one leader per era represented
- Minimal-Duplicate Leaderheads: leaderheads have been chosen based upon a cross-referenced spreadsheet so that no leaderhead appears twice within either a civ grouping or era
- Corporate Techs: each corporation opens up a unique tech that stacks benefits on every corporation you operate and gives you reason to keep them in your own cities first

And a few things that I'm still working on:
- Obsolescence: while adjusting unit and building specializations, I am experimenting to see if obsolescence is necessary at all
- Trait Assignments: (another) recent overhaul of the leader and civ list has left me with the task of restructuring the traits again, which shouldn't take long but will also require them to be reassigned once more
- Music Assignments: each civ will have its own music selected from the existing Firaxis options
- Global Warming: a secret but awesome idea I recently had on how to incorporate climate change, inspired by one of the most famous mods on this site
- Leader Unique Items: every leader will have his or her own unique unit or building, once I sit down and bother assigning them

Bottom line, this thread may show very little, but everything may be about to explode. Thank you for your patience, Zebra and anybody else who keeps waiting and following this; I hope that you will find the results worthwhile.

 

[Zebra 9]

Well I know it will be worth while and I hope everyone else knows the same. I can't wait until you have everything done, it sounds awesome. Now today I had the coolest idea! What if you could train your units? Yes I know I train units all the time, but in my opinion that is building or recruiting. What I want is a system that works the same as now but with the addition of being able to train your unit, and once it has finished training it is more powerful and capable. For example you build a rifleman and then train it, when it completes its training it upgrades to a regular, then you could train it furthur and get an elite. I think I would use a naming convention like Rifleman (Regular), and possibly have special formations for each level. Now I haven't figured out whether training would require Gold, Hammers, or Food. Now the cool part is that I can do this with python alone! Also this could easily be used to increase the number of possible unit types without needing extra graphics. Now you might say this is similar to the promotion system, well not exactly. The promotions can be easily acquired by building special buildings, but this would not be the same with training, it would require a definite amount of time so your unit is out of commission for awhile. This would create the feel of a militia/regular system which is great for Revolutionary War type Scenarios.

Also I was thinking of having a similar system for buildings. Just think you could build your factory in a matter of a couple turns, but then build an upgrade that increases the factories efficiency while still allowing you to harness the factories effects.

 

[Donkey Puncher]

been reading this thread awhile and the stuff you guys are doing sounds awsome . You know what they say good things come to thoughs who wait

 

[Vrenir]

Sounds intriguing. Currently, the plan is for two types of "promotions." The first is the traditional type earned by XP points through combat or through buildings such as Barracks. These promotions represent abilities developed through training such as terrain movement boosts, animal trapping, specific attack and defense bonuses. The second is the Equipment system developed by Dom Pedro II in his Conqueror's Delight modcomp. These are purchasable with gold (plus other prerequisites) and are limited to X number of slots per unit type. For example, Melee can hold two or three equipment, but Mounted can hold four. The Equipment promotions are things like Survival Gear to protect units from storms, Compasses to enhance naval movement, etc. Many bonuses are available in both promotion and equipment form so that players have the option of getting better armies through experience or by budgeting.

So, how might your new idea fit in? What would it do exactly, and how would it serve a unique function not already covered? Would it replace one of these two existing systems or augment them?

Also, I would like to know the viability (either through your new system or by some other means) of automatically upgrading units and buildings. There are two possible ways that I can think to replace the current obsolescence system. One, make units automatically upgrade strength and graphic at each era change without making them a separate unit/building (no true upgrade). Or two, make separate units and buildings that are attained by a return of the ___ Era techs in the tech tree. In order to avoid making all the following upgrades too tedious for the player, however, a free and automated system would also be needed. I prefer the first system greatly, but I don't know what is possible, or if your new promotion system might help. Your opinion please?

 

[Zebra 9]

I like the idea of equipment, and I don't want to replace the current promotion system. My training system allows you to build a unit quickly but its not as powerful as a trained unit.

For example:
The Red Coat is strength 14, if you train him (he is now a "Red Coat [Regular]") he becomes strength 16 and gains a bonus vs Cavalry but it costs 25 gold and 10 hammers, takes 5 turns, and you have to have a training facility in the city. Then you could train him some more (he is now a "Red Coat [Elite]") he is now strength 20 with a bonus vs gun units, but it cost 50 gold and 30 hammers, took 10 turns, and you have to have a "training facility II" (it would be an upgrade on the training facility).

Now this is just an example, the game would have to be balanced.

The main purpose of this is so that a city can't train a Red Coat every turn and build an army that could crush anything. Instead you build a weaker version of the unit, a militia if you will, the you train him and he gains more ability and specialization. Now this might overlap with the equipment, so we could drop the bonuses and just use the strength changes, or we could use them in conjunction. But to use them together we would have tom make the bonuses clearly different.

And the building system would allow you to build a limited version of the building then upgrade it to a more advanced version. Think of it this way, in real life a city doesn't go from dump to production power house over night! Instead it takes years of building onto what you have to accomplish this.

Now regarding the backward unit problem. Using the equipment system you mentioned we could have some equipment that becomes available with different techs and only goes to units that you could build prior. For example, Iron Working would give the "Iron Sword" equipment which is only available to the now obsolete warrior. Or Rifling could give the "Fire Stick" equipment which only the now obsolete melee units can use. And at some point RPGs could come on scene. Also to make it less tedious on the player, we could have a "Military Store House" which a player could turn on in the Military Adviser Screen that would automatically give equipment, but I think we would have to add a new commerce counter that would allow you to devote gold to this.


P.S The "Red Coat [Regular]" and the "Read Coat [Elite]" would be separate units in the XML, but my python script would prevent you from building them. It instead would give a train mission to the "Red Coat" when it was in a city that could train it. This would mean we could have separate formations so people could tell them apart at a glance, and it would add some cool visual effect. Just think a "Red Coat" has 2 lines of 10 men, the "Red Coat [Regular]" 3 lines of 10, and "Red Coat [Elite]" 4 lines of 10, and best of all we only need 1 unit art for 3 units!

Oh and lastly, I have begun work on the building upgrade, and I am playing civ more so I can get back in touch with the game (it's been about 6 months since I played).

 

[Donkey Puncher]

just curious when do you think there will be a working beta for this mod just wondering

 

[Vrenir]

Oh, wouldn't we all like to know. It really depends first on me getting my mod blueprints done. (Yesterday and today were spent actually sketching out leaderhead diagrams to make requests 100% explicit and hopefully get artists excited about contributing.) Then, as I said above, there are still other things to do.

Then, the project largely transfers back to Zebra and our meager list of volunteer programmers. To get this out in any sort of timely manner, WE WILL NEED MORE HELP: XML CODERS AND GRAPHIC ARTISTS ESPECIALLY. It seriously is a huge mod project because it essentially recreates the entire game.

After that, we will definitely need to do some major testing for balance and general playability following all of our restructuring. There will probably be plenty of needed adjustments, but that can probably be done publicly.

So, the bad news is that there is a LOT to do. The good news is that this mod has been in brainstorming and plotting and even preliminary coding for a year now and hasn't died yet. The reason that it isn't further is largely that we keep coming up with better ideas to make the mod more unique and more streamlined so that it doesn't simply become a massive merge of modcomps and leaderheads.

Thank you for your continued interest, and if you or somebody you know can help with the coding and art, please don't hesitate to offer your services.

 

[Zebra 9]

Well I plan to get a teaser out so all those following this can get a taste of what it will be like. I also have to do this so when I'm at college everyone will have access to the new features I have added (Earned UUs, Upgrading Buildings, etc.). So I'll try to have it out around August 20th.

 

[The Turk]

sounds cool! but please try to have it out sooner, because I have to go back to school soon

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

WOW. this looks very, very, VERY promising. I'm looking forward to playing it, especially the stone age

keep up the good work !

 

[Zebra 9]

I'll try for sooner. Just to let you know, I added 8 sampler buildings and remade 1 unit and added another, these show case some new features. But I'm not done yet! I'm gona add the stone age, more buildings, and... well... you'll have to download it when I make the release to find out.

 

[Zebra 9]

Ok, I finally got a compiler working. I have begun work on some of the things we need and that might be interesting. I'll shoot for a release on the 20th.

 

[Zebra 9]

Ok, my release is delayed. Fortunately its for some features that should really make it worth while.

 

[GoodGame]

I'd vote for it draining all three (gold, hammers, and food) from a city that does the unit training. Possibly have the training require a building, such as the barracks, and then give the train command to the unit. The train command would only highlight if the city had the required food, hammers, gold.

I can see it as a leveling system in the same vein as fantasy RPG systems, but it could also work as the weapons upgrades (as CIV4 promotions) in the FFH mod, as just a unit modifier. I'd prefer that myself.

Now I haven't figured out whether training would require Gold, Hammers, or Food. Now the cool part is that I can do this with python alone! Also this could easily be used to increase the number of possible unit types without needing extra graphics. Now you might say this is similar to the promotion system, well not exactly. The promotions can be easily acquired by building special buildings, but this would not be the same with training, it would require a definite amount of time so your unit is out of commission for awhile. This would create the feel of a militia/regular system which is great for Revolutionary War type Scenarios.

 

[Zebra 9]

Well I was thinking gold and hammers. I'm not so sure that food makes sense. If it was to require food then why shouldn't all units require food when they are built? That's just what I was thinking. I also could easily put building requirements on upgrades.

 

[Vrenir]

After spending way too much time considering a way to do units, this is my current idea for those who are interested:

There are to be five eras: Mythic, Ancient, Medieval, Global, and Emergent. (There are reasons for this division which may be explained later.) For each of these erae, the five unit types get a new unit that rather than obsolete the previous units, fills a specialized gap in capability. However, using Dom Pedro II and Zebra9's equipment system, each of these units is not so much a unit as a chassis.

So, we have a total of twenty-five unit chassis, each distinct, spread across five erae. These twenty-five are divided into two sub-types: organic and mechanical.

The organic units are the first in each type: infantry, cavalry, etc. These will use not only equipment but Zebra9's training system to become _____ Veteran or ______ Elite units with added strength and possibly an extra equipment slot.

The later units of each type are the mechanical ones and cannot be trained. Instead, they start with a slightly higher set of abilities and a more focused capability. These include chassis types like wagons, gravships, galleys, submarines, etc.

All units will still gain combat experience in the traditional way, which will be used to simulate special training. Fewer buildings will offer XP bonuses, however, since the idea is for such training to be gained in the field itself.

In addition to these, there will be Hero units that spawn by event in each civ, one for each type. There will also be Champion units that can high level XP units can upgrade to, but there can only be one of each in the history of the world, so you want to get that upgrade first.

How to fit unique units into this system in light of the chassis thing is something that I am still contemplating, but my current idea is to possibly have variations of the chassis available to each civ: African Infantry, European Infantry, Asian Infantry, American Infantry, and Middle Eastern Infantry.

 

[GoodGame]

For realism's sake, if that were the aim, I'd have units drain from a shared food pool, but unless you add one, I guess it is better to be consistent with the fact that units don't cost food to build and therefore don't charge food for training (a logistical fallacy). I think regardless, training should come out of the hammers of the city the unit is in, but multiple units should be allowed to train per city if the city has enough hammers per turn. But the training shouldn't occupy the city production slot.

Well I was thinking gold and hammers. I'm not so sure that food makes sense. If it was to require food then why shouldn't all units require food when they are built? That's just what I was thinking. I also could easily put building requirements on upgrades.

 

[Zebra 9]

Yea, that is what I was thinking. The more units you train in the city the slower they train and the slower production on buildings and new units is.

So we are gona have 25 base units!!!! Awesome, I bet it loads faster. hehe

 

[GoodGame]

From the OP

I will also make it possible for you to fail to understand a technology, you might have to develope it multiple times before you actually understand the technology. I want to set it so that GPs, tech trading, goody huts, and free technologies are automaticly understood.

Is this idea still in the game? I was thinking from playing Victoria (the Paradox game) that instead of re-researching a tech repeatedly (seems a clumsy mechanic to me), you could represent the slowness of a tech to permeate a society by tracking the relative education level of the society. A simple metric would be the 'literacy' of the society, which might be boosted by diverting research lightbulbs, or by buildings.
Essentially, it'd be a new slider resource, 'literacy'. I'd suggest represented by the icon of an open book e.g.

It'd be essentially a slider of dependent on the research slider. Not sure of all the specifics, though I imagine there'd be some efficiencies and modifiers to it based on city distance, civics, buildings et al, but a simple ratio of civ population : Literacy would give the rate that a new tech permeates a society and therefore a delay (in number of turns) before a new tech can actually be used by civ.


EDIT: And actually in Victoria, literacy is one of the secondary means of research in that game. But I think the above idea would create some interesting choices between fast, top secret research, and disseminating knowledge.

EDIT: I just realized that if you did go with this system, it creates an unusual situation where you might have multiple techs researched, but not disseminated. So each tech, once research was completed, would get a counter then for dissemination. Would that counter be real-time modified by changes in the Literacy slider? Or would it the counter be locked at the time a tech moved from the research phase to the dissemination phase?

 

[Zebra 9]

Not sure that that idea would be easy to balance. Somewhere towards the beginning of the thread someone had an idea that I thought would be cool though. You would basically keep researching a tech until you develop it. There would be a random chance of your scientists discovering it and the more beakers you have devoted the higher the chance.